Massive vibrations from Pyro motor ( finally got it ) -I +P +S

[mkovalcson]

I've got a Pyro 650-103 that is giving me fits.

I've had the shaft and bearings replaced and even sent it back to Kontronik. I've been told that Kontronik tests their motors very carefully when they are sent back, so I'm thinking this issue is more complex.

I have a Jive 100LV driving it.

I was told that I might have cold solder joints, so I soldered fresh PRC6 connectors as motor bullets between my ESC and motor with my Weller set to 800 degrees.

I can connect an Align 600MX-1200 to the same Jive 100LV and it spins smooth as silk with almost no vibrations of any kind.

However when I connect the Pyro 650-103 to my Jive 100LV I get vibrations that I can feel. The motor sounds rough, and my SK-720 is telling me that the motor is generating a 10G vibration at about 23,000 rpm. It is rated for 25,000 rpm.

I just have the motor bolted to my Logo 550SX frame. It doesn't even have a pinion on it and is not driving anything.

This has been going on for months now and my helicopter is deadlined.

I'm not trying to place blame, and I don't care if I'm the one doing something very wrong, but I'm running out of ideas.

FWIW I also have a Pyro 700 and 800 that are running great as well as other Scorpion motors and an Align motor. I've never seen anything like this before.

[mkovalcson]

Does anyone know of any Jive 100LV firmware issues with the Pyro 650 ?

I was told the Pyro 650 is basically a short Pyro 700, but I know it has to be wound differently for the 1030kV.

I got the Jive 100LV in June of 2011 with whatever firmware it came with.

[mkovalcson]

If I can't get something figured out this week, I'm selling the motor and buying the typical suggested Scorpion motor for my 550SX.

Life is just too short and this has been frustrating me for far to long. I'm in this hobby to have fun and I really love my Kontronik ESC's and the other motors I have, but if I can't get this to work then I have to move on.

[smsodhi]

I have had bearings replaced by K that turned out to be bad. So, my suggestion would be to source another full set of bearings online and replace them yourself, once more before throwing in the towel.

I assume the motor has not had any direct trauma to it that has damaged the can or stator that would put it out of balance.

[Mercuriell]

Certainly try another ESC just in case there is an issue. If you have a Mega, check for shorts between case and windings. Does it spin freely when disconnected or is it coggy?

I agree with Satnam, change the bearings yourself, those small bearings are very fragile and a bit of rough handling could have pitted the tracks

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

I've got a Pyro 650-103 that is giving me fits.

I've had the shaft and bearings replaced and even sent it back to Kontronik. I've been told that Kontronik tests their motors very carefully when they are sent back, so I'm thinking this issue is more complex.

I have a Jive 100LV driving it.

I was told that I might have cold solder joints, so I soldered fresh PRC6 connectors as motor bullets between my ESC and motor with my Weller set to 800 degrees.

I can connect an Align 600MX-1200 to the same Jive 100LV and it spins smooth as silk with almost no vibrations of any kind.

However when I connect the Pyro 650-103 to my Jive 100LV I get vibrations that I can feel. The motor sounds rough, and my SK-720 is telling me that the motor is generating a 10G vibration at about 23,000 rpm. It is rated for 25,000 rpm.

I just have the motor bolted to my Logo 550SX frame. It doesn't even have a pinion on it and is not driving anything.

This has been going on for months now and my helicopter is deadlined.

I'm not trying to place blame, and I don't care if I'm the one doing something very wrong, but I'm running out of ideas.

FWIW I also have a Pyro 700 and 800 that are running great as well as other Scorpion motors and an Align motor. I've never seen anything like this before.

Have you ran the motor not attached to the airframe?? can you also post a picture of the solder joints? Is the motor mount bolts secure? How is the SK mounted?

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

Have you ran the motor not attached to the airframe?? can you also post a picture of the solder joints? Is the motor mount bolts secure? How is the SK mounted?

As far as the SK and the motor mount goes when I bolted an Align 600MX to the same airframe and ran it off the same ESC, the same SK said it was smooth as silk.

Yes the bolts are solid. I checked and rechecked it.

Greg replaced the bearings once. I doubt the orginal bearings had a problem and I doubt the bearings Greg installed had a problem.

Kontronik then had the motor for a while and sent it back suggesting that I had cold solder joints.

One thing I would mention is that the current can't be too high when there is no load on the motor. I don't even have a pinion installed yet. It is just spinning in place.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

Certainly try another ESC just in case there is an issue. If you have a Mega, check for shorts between case and windings. Does it spin freely when disconnected or is it coggy?

I agree with Satnam, change the bearings yourself, those small bearings are very fragile and a bit of rough handling could have pitted the tracks

It spins smoothly and the bearings have been replaced at least once so far by Greg and I think he knows how to do this well.

Then Kontronik inspected it.

Unfortunately I don't have any spare ESC's hanging around and I just soldered PRC6's to this motor and the ESC to be very sure it would have a solid connection.

I guess I could solder up some wires for my Kosmik 160 on the Banshee and bolt those wires down.

The issue is that the same Jive 100LV drives my Align 600MX very smoothly so there is something different between the Align and Pyro that is making a difference.

[mkovalcson]

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

If I install a 4025-1100 and it runs perfectly, what then?

My Jive 100LV is perfectly happy with my 600MX-1200 and will run it all day long and perfectly smoothly and at this point I'm betting that if I drop a 4025 in the Jive will be perfectly happy with it too.

Do I have any recourse when I can't get two Kontronik products to work well together?

[dl7uae]

After reading it all: I think it is the PYRO himself.

Inspection... Inspection is done by human. What if on the day a femal colleague had strapped the

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by dl7uae

After reading it all: I think it is the PYRO himself.

Inspection... Inspection is done by human. What if on the day a femal colleague had strapped the

I had Greg open it up in the US. He didn't see anything wrong with it but installed a new set of bearings and a new shaft and sent it back to me.

The vibrations were the same about 10G when I spun it up.

I shipped it back to Germany and Kontronik inpected it and unsoldered my bullets and made a comment about cold solder joints, so I resoldered the bullets on both sides and I still get 10G when the motor is spun up.

What else do I have left to do? I got the Pyro motor which was a substantial upcharge over the typical Scorpion I could have gotten for my 550SX. I've paid twice to have it serviced, so now I have well over $400 invested in a motor I can't use.

I was VERY careful to solder these bullets well. I used plenty of heat and the solder flowed well.

[smsodhi]

IF the bearings are OK, then there may be a cut in the windings.

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=27

[Seasick78]

Send it back to ReadyHeli.

(sorry couldn't resist)

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by smsodhi

IF the bearings are OK, then there may be a cut in the windings.

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=27

Interesting..

To bad there is no way to check for that without voiding the warrantee. If I found a problem I'd end up having to send it off to have it rewound.

I think I'm WAY past the point where the pain and aggrevation isn't worth it anymore. I'm ordering a Scorpion motor and pinion so I can fly this heli. Life is too short.

Unfortunately this has soured me on Kontronik motors for the time being. I don't like throwing money away but I REALLY don't like wasting a lot of my time and this has taken way too much time and netted me ZERO enjoyment.

[Vinger]

Feel for you, we pay premium prices for K products and expect flawless operation and if another brand works and K not, I will be pissed as well. Strange how we have to fight for service on something coming at a premium price, to only eventually give up, maybe that is what they want.....

[KONTRONIK USA]

Mark's vibration issue is perplexing. When he first sent it Greg Alderman, who does motor repair and service, the motor ran fine and Greg could not find any problems. I asked Greg to go ahead and replace the shafts and bearings as a preemptive measure. Once I received the motor from Greg I ran it myself and it felt smooth with no evidence of vibration. I then shipped the motor to Germany so they could perform additional testing and investigation. Once there, it was tested and checked with no problems observed. They could not find any vibration, or issues as Mark had when he was testing himself.

If the motor is not causing the vibration, the question is what, or what combination of factors in his particular machine is contributing to this problem. I have shared Mark's newest reports with the factory to see if they have any additional thoughts.

Charles

[dl7uae]

Yes, it's strange..

How about the length of your bolts? The devil is a squirrels..

Put for test a couple washers under them..

[mmarian]

The most common cause for vibration is the magnets on the can are dislodged. They use a glue to hold them in position and the glue is very fragile to hard knocks. If a magnet is dislodged it gets attracted to a neighbour magnet by the magnetic force and the whole motor is out of balance. It is all smooth when turn by hand but when spinning it vibrates like crazy. When people change the shaft and do not have access to a arbor press they try to knock the shaft out of the can and it can dislodge the magnets. Open the motor and see if you have even gaps between the magnets. They might be two or more stuck together.

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by mmarian

The most common cause for vibration is the magnets on the can are dislodged. They use a glue to hold them in position and the glue is very fragile to hard knocks. If a magnet is dislodged it gets attracted to a neighbour magnet by the magnetic force and the whole motor is out of balance. It is all smooth when turn by hand but when spinning it vibrates like crazy. When people change the shaft and do not have access to a arbor press they try to knock the shaft out of the can and it can dislodge the magnets. Open the motor and see if you have even gaps between the magnets. They might be two or more stuck together.

All the bearing and shaft work was done with an arbor press and the motor was spun up on multiple occasions and was smooth. Agree with Tom check the length of the mounting screws. Some screws shorting the windings may cause that

[mkovalcson]

Good news! I'm going to wait off on the new motor purchase just a bit longer.

A very good friend of mine will be shipping me his known good Jive 100LV and Pyro 650-103 from his 550SX with about 40 flights on them.

I intend to do the following:

1. Put his pair on my 550SX and get a baseline vibration measurement.

Assuming that looks good then I'll try the following:

2. I will use my ESC to drive his motor and see what happens then.

At that point we should know if the issue is the ESC or motor.

3. I could also see if his ESC can drive my motor.

Fortunately we both are using PRC6's all around on this, so I won't have to do anything but plug and play. He gave me the idea to go all PRC6 a while ago. I had converted all my batteries, but this is the first heli that I used PRC6 bullets on the motor.