My maiden w/ Hard Deck...Hmmmm...

[Tim Marks]

Originally Posted by SKYQUEST

Ok. I finally got another couple of more flights in. It wasn't in a very large field like I wanted, but I got a better feel for the deck.
I love it. It works really well...you just have to get used to the heli veering in the inertial direction of travel. That was a little tricky in the different baseball field due to the stadium lights I had to watch for. Still, I have not made any heli go upside down, but I sure did put it at 90* and just put the collective at 0* pitch. Wap, the ER kicks right in.
The one thing I dont like is when flying below the deck and flipping the on / off switch to on, it ER auto-levels but it shoots up to the hard deck...I wanted it to just level w/ maybe a little collective. I guess this is not changeable?
Regardless, it flys INDEED as advertised. But, you DEFINETLY need a huge, wide open field to give it the real test. One thing I didnt realize I would experience is how to react after an ER w/ my rudder. I almost hit a light pole the one time, but thats why I say use a large, clear open, FLAT area.
I still want a lower deck height! Not much! Just 35-40 feet will be fine! 50' is like, the top of a telephone poll. Its juuuust a little above my comfort zone. I already understand why this was not allowed though. (How about a custom FW version just for little ol' me? LoL!) I'd do it even knowing the heli can't recover IF i came in WAAAY too fast.

Ohyea.... YEP, I now felt the HD slowly climb up to the deckline. I took off, started hovering around the 30' mark and flipped the switch on. W/o moving the collective, it indeed started slowly ascending and stopped at about that 50' mark.

Hi SkyQuest:

I've been waiting for you to post a definitive, positive experience with your Hard Deck Module, and so I'm happy to see this one. I know you've been working at it really hard along with your new job and everything! Thanks for reporting back and letting the forum know about your progress.

Congratulations! Still hoping you can forward those images and possibly a statement over to Howard at howard@fmadirect.com for our Customer Talk page. I think it would be really great to show a different kind of installation in a Goblin. It sounds like what you did is quite unique and I am rather curious to see how it all turned out too!

I'm no heli pilot, just a lowly engineer, but I think the Goblin is one really cool looking chopper personally!

[SKYQUEST]

Originally Posted by Tim Marks

Hi SkyQuest:

I've been waiting for you to post a definitive, positive experience with your Hard Deck Module, and so I'm happy to see this one. I know you've been working at it really hard along with your new job and everything! Thanks for reporting back and letting the forum know about your progress.

Congratulations! Still hoping you can forward those images and possibly a statement over to Howard at howard@fmadirect.com for our Customer Talk page. I think it would be really great to show a different kind of installation in a Goblin. It sounds like what you did is quite unique and I am rather curious to see how it all turned out too!

I'm no heli pilot, just a lowly engineer, but I think the Goblin is one really cool looking chopper personally!

Will do. I'll make tomorrow a photo shoot day. The new job at VW was sort of awkward for the 1st few days, but it's sort of fading away slowly...few more weeks and I'll be comfy there. (I hate anxiety!!!)
I cant believe you dont fly rc helis!!
I guess you're into flying plankers maybe? Or, are you just are the engineer behind the scenes ONLY? (Which is pretty cool too.)
I'm going to get in some more flight time tomorrow...hopefully at a better field.
It really does come down to the field one is at. That field really has to be obstacle free and quite large. If that combo comes together, I will help in the fear of veering off into a tree.

I'm guessing when you hit ER under the deck, it is going to shoot to the deck height? I sort of thought it would level and remain in the general area it ER'd.

[Tim Marks]

Hi:

See comments below in red...

Will do. I'll make tomorrow a photo shoot day. Thanks a lot! The new job at VW was sort of awkward for the 1st few days, but it's sort of fading away slowly...few more weeks and I'll be comfy there. (I hate anxiety!!!) don't we all? But a little stress is usually a good thing and it can lead to a better place ultimately. Good luck with it!
I cant believe you dont fly rc helis!!
I guess you're into flying plankers maybe? Or, are you just are the engineer behind the scenes ONLY? (Which is pretty cool too.) I can fly, but I'm a terrible pilot. I'm shaky to begin with and when I get nervous, I tend to drive 'em into the ground; or into a tree; if Night reads this, he'll be all to happy to chime in! One can only have so many hobbies. R/C is my business. My hobby and my passion is music. Been playing guitar since 7th grade, write music, play music. Love it!

I'm going to get in some more flight time tomorrow...hopefully at a better field.
It really does come down to the field one is at. That field really has to be obstacle free and quite large. I imagine that depends greatly on the size of the ship too, and if I'm not mistaken the Goblin is kind of on the large size isn't it? If that combo comes together, I will help in the fear of veering off into a tree.

I'm guessing when you hit ER under the deck, it is going to shoot to the deck height? I sort of thought it would level and remain in the general area it ER'd. I'm a little surprised to hear you describe the reaction this way. It's not really what I've witnessed in all the test flights I've watched - and I've seen a ton of them. Perhaps some of the beta testers can chime in. I know that when you first reach 30 feet and the Hard Deck arms, the inital climb to the Hard Deck altitude is rather abrupt and actually pretty cool as long as you know it's coming. But after a recovery, it's usually a gentle climb back up to the HD set altitude, and only when the collective is set around hover pitch. So, I'm wondering about the circumstance that led you to the sensation you experienced? Do you think you might have pushed a good bit of positive collective during the recovery, and that when CPII turned back over control to you, the stick was already in the position that led to the brisk ascent? Perhaps you should experiment carefully with not adding so much positive collective during or slightly after a recovery. But then again, I'd figure too much is likely better than not enough, depending on your level of experience as a pilot. It's always better to be going up heading away from terra firma than down after the initial shock of "losing control", which is when you really needed the Hard Deck Module to save you. What do you think? Does what I'm saying make sense to you?

[SKYQUEST]

Originally Posted by Tim Marks

Hi:

See comments below in red...

Will do. I'll make tomorrow a photo shoot day. Thanks a lot! The new job at VW was sort of awkward for the 1st few days, but it's sort of fading away slowly...few more weeks and I'll be comfy there. (I hate anxiety!!!) don't we all? But a little stress is usually a good thing and it can lead to a better place ultimately. Good luck with it!
I cant believe you dont fly rc helis!!
I guess you're into flying plankers maybe? Or, are you just are the engineer behind the scenes ONLY? (Which is pretty cool too.) I can fly, but I'm a terrible pilot. I'm shaky to begin with and when I get nervous, I tend to drive 'em into the ground; or into a tree; if Night reads this, he'll be all to happy to chime in! One can only have so many hobbies. R/C is my business. My hobby and my passion is music. Been playing guitar since 7th grade, write music, play music. Love it!

I'm going to get in some more flight time tomorrow...hopefully at a better field.
It really does come down to the field one is at. That field really has to be obstacle free and quite large. I imagine that depends greatly on the size of the ship too, and if I'm not mistaken the Goblin is kind of on the large size isn't it? If that combo comes together, I will help in the fear of veering off into a tree.

I'm guessing when you hit ER under the deck, it is going to shoot to the deck height? I sort of thought it would level and remain in the general area it ER'd. I'm a little surprised to hear you describe the reaction this way. It's not really what I've witnessed in all the test flights I've watched - and I've seen a ton of them. Perhaps some of the beta testers can chime in. I know that when you first reach 30 feet and the Hard Deck arms, the inital climb to the Hard Deck altitude is rather abrupt and actually pretty cool as long as you know it's coming. But after a recovery, it's usually a gentle climb back up to the HD set altitude, and only when the collective is set around hover pitch. So, I'm wondering about the circumstance that led you to the sensation you experienced? Do you think you might have pushed a good bit of positive collective during the recovery, and that when CPII turned back over control to you, the stick was already in the position that led to the brisk ascent? Perhaps you should experiment carefully with not adding so much positive collective during or slightly after a recovery. But then again, I'd figure too much is likely better than not enough, depending on your level of experience as a pilot. It's always better to be going up heading away from terra firma than down after the initial shock of "losing control", which is when you really needed the Hard Deck Module to save you. What do you think? Does what I'm saying make sense to you?

Well, I will indeed test fly again tomorrow. But I did get the feel of how it felt bouncing off the deck and that one actually has to be a little quick on the collective to match the hover in order to keep it out of the deck. I did this the whole first flight pack. The 2nd pack I wanted to try flipping on the CPII under the deck. So, i got it about 30'-ish tilted it and flipped the on switch. It climbed quick to the deck height. I tried again and it still jumped up fast to the deck height (50'-ish.) I am 99% sure I didn't give it that much collective. I'll give her a whirl tomorrow and try this again

What about you other guys whom has a HD installed? Did you notice this?

[Tim Marks]

Originally Posted by SKYQUEST

Well, I will indeed test fly again tomorrow. But I did get the feel of how it felt bouncing off the deck and that one actually has to be a little quick on the collective to match the hover in order to keep it out of the deck. I did this the whole first flight pack. The 2nd pack I wanted to try flipping on the CPII under the deck. So, i got it about 30'-ish tilted it and flipped the on switch. It climbed quick to the deck height. I tried again and it still jumped up fast to the deck height (50'-ish.) I am 99% sure I didn't give it that much collective. I'll give her a whirl tomorrow and try this again

What about you other guys whom has a HD installed? Did you notice this?

Hi:

Ah, it sounds like you are switching the Flight Mode off, then flying below the deck, switching it back on? In this case the HD Module would re-initialize at 30 feet, and you would get the fast ascent back up to the deck. That sound like what's happening? That would make sense, and it would be normal behavior.

[SKYQUEST]

Originally Posted by Tim Marks

Hi:

Ah, it sounds like you are switching the Flight Mode off, then flying below the deck, switching it back on? In this case the HD Module would re-initialize at 30 feet, and you would get the fast ascent back up to the deck. That sound like what's happening? That would make sense, and it would be normal behavior.

Hmmm, ok. I think I was turning it off above the deck, then coming back through the deck tilting the heli and flipping the CPII on. (flight mode on / off.) So, being that's said, if I came back down through the deck w/o turning off the flight mode, got to say 20' and turned the flight mode off it is normal flight. If I flip it on now being I came through the deck w/ it turned on, will it just ER level instead of additionally shooting it up to the deck?

[Tim Marks]

Originally Posted by SKYQUEST

Hmmm, ok. I think I was turning it off above the deck, then coming back through the deck tilting the heli and flipping the CPII on. (flight mode on / off.) So, being that's said, if I came back down through the deck w/o turning off the flight mode, got to say 20' and turned the flight mode off it is normal flight. If I flip it on now being I came through the deck w/ it turned on, will it just ER level instead of additionally shooting it up to the deck?

SkyQuest:

Sorry to confuse you. Let me try to clarify:

1) The ascent from 30' to 50' only happens ONCE during a flight to arm HD so it will function. This means the first time you are below 30' and you activate "Level in H.Deck" Flight Mode ON. It is the equivalent to turning the safety OFF on a gun. The safe is now off and remains off during the remainder of the flight. The 30' has no effect on anything during the remainder of the flight.

2) After HD is armed the first time, from now on when you flip HD ON and the heli is more than 20 degrees off level then and ER occurs regardless of altitude. If less than 20 degrees off level at or below the set Hard Deck altitude, the CPII goes into the super stable mode.

Hope this helps clarify things for you. Any other questions, ask away.

[lancer161]

Is it safe to leave the CPII on in "Level in HD" mode when take off a FBL heli? Will the CPII cause the FBL heli to crash? I used to switch the CPII off until stable hover then switch it on.

[Tim Marks]

Originally Posted by lancer161

Is it safe to leave the CPII on in "Level in HD" mode when take off a FBL heli? Will the CPII cause the FBL heli to crash? I used to switch the CPII off until stable hover then switch it on.

Hi:

I think you could hear different answers from different people, but I'll just say that, whatever worked for you before Hard Deck is what you should do after Hard Deck is installed. Adding Hard Deck isn't going to change the behavior of the system you experienced before you installed it.

[n6nev]

Then here us the test. With the heil at rest on the groung, switch the HD on and watch the swash plate , if it leans to one side , there is your answer........ I will do so in the morning.

[sutty]

Originally Posted by lancer161

Is it safe to leave the CPII on in "Level in HD" mode when take off a FBL heli? Will the CPII cause the FBL heli to crash? I used to switch the CPII off until stable hover then switch it on.

n6nev's answer, once I had descrambled it, lol, is a good one, if a little short. Since I have time I will try to explain in a little more detail.

Basically, it goes something like this. You know how in FBL control they always tell you not to have any trim or sub-trim in on your radio, well this is because this could be interpretted by the FBL controller as a command to move, which was initiated by you, from the transmitter. Since it doesn't know it is on the ground, when it detects no movement from the helicopter, in response to this perceived request, it will try to add more throw to make the heli move, which it still will not. This process can be repeated over and over until you are at full throw, or close to it, and as soon as the headspeed is sufficient your helicopter can tip over.

If the stabalilsation is engaged on the ground, the CPII avionics computer may think it is slightly off level, especially if you have any nearby obstacles, or sources of heat, or even if the ground is not level, relative to its perceived horizon. This can result in a consistent, none stop levelling instruction being sent to your FBL controller, from the CPII, which would be like trim, and the FBL controller can respond as I described above, as in the case of trim or sub-trim, and cause your heli to tip over.

Now having said this, I have both landed and taken off, by mistake, when the CPII controller had been left switched on by accident, but as n6nev mentioned, I was not getting any swash movement on the ground, and no strange tendencies when I came back in to land, as true level must have been close to the CPII's perception of level. Not only that, I also had my stick priority at 150% at the time, which meant that practically any stick movement by me would prevent the CPII sending out consistent and never quitting corrective instructions, which could have confused my FBL controller. In other words, the control loops were dampened so effectively by my chosen gain and stick priority settings, that I had no issue with the FBL controller on these occassions, as I was practically commanding it directly anyway. Had circumstances been different, landing near some trees, obstacles or people, or had I had different settings, then I may not have had the same fortunate outcome. I say fortunate, because I did not plan to either land or take off with stabalisation enabled on these occassions.

I should also say, that Tim's statement with regard to "If you didn't have a problem with CPII alone, then you will not have a problem with HD either", or similar, only applies if you choose to do the set-up for your HD module with exactly the same settings that you had for CPII alone. From first hand experience, and going back to n6nev's comment about if the swash tilts, you have a problem, I can tell you that I have gone for a much more aggressive set-up for my HD bail out, and the result of this is that my FBL controller does not like it on the ground at all. It moves around all over the place, going from one extreme to the other if I just so much as move around the heli. So aggressive, that before I maiden it with the HD module, I am going to re-do the set-up in order that I have exactly the same values as I had for my CPII set-up alone.

Stupid of me really to be trying to complicate things by adding too many changes at once. My new plan is to set-up exactly as worked for me before, and then, if I feel the need, after I have a good few flights and tests under my belt, I will increase the travel adjust that the CPII can send to the FBL controller by re-doing the set-up.

So after that long answer, my short answer is, don't do it, it could end in tears, especially as it is easy to turn it off.


Cheers

Sutty

[nightflyr]

Readers Digest version ( no offense sutty )

Take off and land a FBL helicopter with CPII off and auto trim set at 0.
JMHO and suggestion.

[sutty]

Lol, readers digest, that's me all over. All I thought was that since he asked, he probably didn't know why either. Since I had the time, I decided to provide a little more detail to help flesh out the bones. Hopefully he now has a basic explanation of why people make the suggestions that they do when this question is asked, and also why sometimes people's answers differ, in that some say that they can get away with it. If he doesn't need the long version then perhaps you already noted that I acknowledged Larry's short answer at the beginning and at the end, in my own short version, I also put don't do it too. At least now he has some information on which to base his own decision.

I had intended to make reference to Auto Trim, but got distracted at work, damned customers, so thank you for the reminder.

To continue in the same light, adding a little further explanation, the reason that night suggests that Auto Trim should be set to zero is that when it is enabled, CPII stabalisation is never truly off. Going back to the original readers digest version, you will appreciate that if it is still on, even if to a lesser extent, it can still send an uncommanded instruction to the FBL controller, which again can result in unpredictable and undesired behaviour on the ground.

So yes, I concur with night. Off for landing and taking off, and auto trim set to 0, when using the CPII with an FBL controller.

Cheers

Sutty

[jdd1]

Hi Sutty,

Very well thought out and very well stated. I agree 100%.

Jack

[lancer161]

Thks all for the answers & explanations especially Sutty, very good explanation. I'll do as usual off CPII during takeoff and landing.

[n6nev]

Originally Posted by n6nev

Then here us the test. With the heil at rest on the groung, switch the HD on and watch the swash plate , if it leans to one side , there is your answer........ I will do so in the morning.

When I turn on the hd on the ground , the main sensor moves the swash plate,with heat from hand, so leave it off , then engage after lift off................Larry

[sutty]

Okay, so I have now just maidened my 600 with the HD module installed. Because I am an impetuous fool I did not re-set-up my travel relationship between the CPII and the MicroBeast FBL unit that I am using, like I said I would do, and I left it on the absolute fastest MicroBeast settings possible. This resulted in very fast recoveries, with lovely assosciate blade noise, lol, but the recoveries were actually quite shocking. Having thought about it since I came back in, I realise now that when I perform a manoeuvre, even a very extreme one, I do not just apply the full commanded stick in a single motion, it is a more gentle approach, even when doing faily aggressive 3D, you kind of apply it smoothly and progressively. This is not really what happens with the HD, it just goes blade bark, whoosh, level.

Anyway, I kind of rushed out, because there was a weather window which was fast closing in. I'd just driven back from the direction of the bad weather so I knew it was coming, and indeed it is here now. It was very cold on my hands and very windy, but it has was briefly sunny, so I just went out without resetting the CPII for MicroBeast as I had said I would do elsewhere in another thread. The CPII is set-up to send 125% travel adjust signals, and I have my radio tamed back to 110%, so you can see why it would be fast during recovery. I did have some concern about these settings, but I just hit the switch for the first time, ready to knock it off if I had to, but no problem, the flight angles I had spent some time tuning in the other day had worked just perfectly with the new set-up so there wastn't even a twitch. In fact there was nothing, not even an ascent to the HD, that I had been expecting. I figured I must have got something wrong, so ploughed back down towards me to get it back on the ground.

As I was heading back, it suddenly went bang, level, damn, I nearly crapped myself. The reason it didn't climb to the HD, or do anything like even twitch, was because I was being cautious for the first ever switch on, and was very high, so I was above the deck. When I dived back in to come home and check it out it was still on, and it activated when I hit the HD.

After that, since I don't like to mess about once I'm trying something, I must have done 20 recoveries in one pack, literally every few seconds, from a mixture of unpleasant situations. Doing piro flips, sliding sideways and fast into the deck, doing tail slides, and various other odd things, and all the recoveries worked as they should.

I tested the super stabalization in the deck, and found that if I tried to roll, then the heli would effectively keep bouncing off an imaginary limit of angle, instead of just stopping at this angle. This bouncing may be a CPII stabalisation gain setting, together with the very sensitive settings that I have on my MicroBeast, or it may be intentional that it bounces off it a little to tell you it is doing something. Either way it was obviously working, and prevented me getting into a roll or similar whilst in the deck.

Of the 20 or so recoveries that I performed, only two came low, to about 20 feet. One because it seemed like maybe it couldn't make up its mind which way to go. If I were guessing it looked like it changed its mind, before it finally flipped it over, but no matter it still got it over in good time, just lower that most others. The other one to get low was one of the first ones I did, and whilst I was marvelling at it battering my heli over to level, I completely forgot about collective, and after the two seconds, it was me slamming it towards the ground, before arresting the descent with 15 to 20 feet to go. So I guess its recovery was still high, but my response caused it to get lower than the others.

Some of these things will have been said before, but I can now comment first hand, so if I were to summarise my experience, I would do so as follows:

1) It does exactly what it says on the tin.

2) The recoveries will come as a shock to you until you are used to them.

3) When it recovers you must be calm and control your collective.

4) When it recovers, it can do so at any tail position, so you must be calm and ready to bring it back to tail in, so that you can get it back under control. Well, that's if your orientations aren't so great.

5) Whilst being aware that I can fly with it off, and invoke a manual recovery at any time, I have to say that the 50 foot HD is simply too high for me. Whilst flying around, well above the HD, which you have to do to be practical, as you tend to lose height sometimes, and just bang into the deck, even if you don't mean to, it is twice as high as where I have been used to flying on average. I am a fairly accomplished pilot, and have today realised that I am rarely up that high, except for some test or other, and I even found it a little tricky to get into certain orientations, that I normally might, because I wasn't used to how it looked and felt up there. If I were still a beginner, this would be awesome, really awesome, but at my level, and rarely crashing now anyway, touchwood, even though I fly low, I cannot see what benefit I will get out of it. That having been said, I love the technology, and I had an absolute blast putting it on my heli, and testing it out, and it absolutely works, but it is not going to be for me I don't think.

I will be having many more goes, so we'll have to see.

Cheers

Sutty

[ROGER G]

Hi Sutty
I do not have my HD operational yet, but I find your review very interesting. I wonder if you feel that if the Hard Deck could be set to 30ft if that would make it more usefull to you ? It seems that is the ongoing theme in reading or hearing comments about the Hard Deck. I know FMA will not change that, they have stated that many times, so I don't know what the answer could be. Maybe if FMA would have people sign a waiver or sign some sort of release from liability, they would allow a download of firmware with a Hard Deck of 30ft. The only other way would be for some high tech hacker to figure a way to modify the software to get the desired HD altitude. Anyway, I'll soon find out if my opinion is going to match yours.

Cheers and Blue Sky's ( in the UK ? )
Roger

[sutty]

lol, that was why I had to rush out, as the blue sky was ever so brief.

It may be a recurring theme, and I have been through it at length with Tim, along with Jerry and others, but he will not change his mind, with or without a waiver. In the end I accepted this, and simply shut up about it, as until I had tried it I was not speaking with any authority. Now that I have seen it and experienced it for myself, I intended to bring it up just this once more in that I felt I should report my feelings accurately about what I thought, having now tried the HD. One other reason why I shut up earlier, apart from with respect to Tim's decision, was because of an experiment I did outside, where I walked 50 feet away from my helicopter on the ground, only to discover this was really very near still. I realised that I frequently fly much further away than 50 feet, in fact I am rarely nearer than 50 feet, so close is it, so I thought how bad can 50 feet high be, but today I have discovered it is not the same. 50 feet up, when you fly very often almost at eye level, is completely different flying.

I do not inted to make a big deal of it now either, as Tim was very clear, it will not be changed, certainly not in the early stages, though it may become a goal for the future. The fact is, on one ER where I didn't make a mistake with the collective after the recovery, I was at around 20 feet when it finished, i.e. having lost 30 feet, and if this had been from a starting point of around 30 feet it may not have made it. It would certainly have been very close. So would I have been happy with a HD of 30 feet, not sure, perhaps not today.

The point really wasn't to drag back that discussion, I was simply reporting the facts of how it applied to me, and for me it is too high, but it won't be for many others.

Cheers

Sutty

[ROGER G]

Thanks for your info Sutty ! If my test flights and opinions match yours, then I will state the fact, that I would be willing to pay someone, say $25.00 to $50 to show me how or to modify my software to get that 30ft HD altitude, if nothing more than to just have a chance to experiment with it. That's also a part of the enjoyment of this hobby. Hmmmmm. that might be a good little side business for someone that knows how to do it ! I can see the ad now: SOFTWARE MODIFIERS INC. Oh well, I know that's a nutty thought , but .................

Roger