trying From tail-in to all 8s and funnels in 6 months

[blade450]

Originally Posted by cquillen

I'm up to the funnels lesson in the sim now. Started in September. Weather has been cold and windy so IRL is way behind the sim. Not been to the field since November.

Main issue I'm having is the disk angle gets progressively steeper until it's nearly knife edge and I loose the groove. I have to put in some elevator to prevent this. For example for a skids out, tail up funnels I'm having to pull some back elevator to keep disk from getting too steep. Is this normal? I was thinking it might be due to not keeping the tail perpendicular.

I saw some other post, don't remember where, that said there are 16 funnel orientations. I only count 8. Skids in/out * tail in/out * cw/ccw. Does anyone know how there could be 16?

Yes, it's normal that you have to correct with elevator. If you don't do the nose perfectly, it changes the funnel and you have to correct.

As for the orientations, I guess they see forward and backwards as orientations too. Then you would get to 16.



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[btheli]

I'm working on perfecting funnels now myself, and yes you do need to fly both the aileron and the elevator, i.e., corrections are constantly needed to both (and the tail) to keep everything on course and looking good. With circles, whether forward, backwards, tail up or tail down, there are moments where all you have to to is hold the sticks perfectly still, but it usually doesn't take long before things wander off and you need to start making corrections again. My experience is that flying slower is much harder than faster and requires more corrections to keep everything smooth and consistent.Thus, I prefer to fly slower when I'm running through my practice drills.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by cquillen

I'm up to the funnels lesson in the sim now. Started in September. Weather has been cold and windy so IRL is way behind the sim. Not been to the field since November.

Main issue I'm having is the disk angle gets progressively steeper until it's nearly knife edge and I loose the groove. I have to put in some elevator to prevent this. For example for a skids out, tail up funnels I'm having to pull some back elevator to keep disk from getting too steep. Is this normal? I was thinking it might be due to not keeping the tail perpendicular.

I saw some other post, don't remember where, that said there are 16 funnel orientations. I only count 8. Skids in/out * tail in/out * cw/ccw. Does anyone know how there could be 16?

Normal to balance elevator in funnels to control bank angle.

8 - funnel orientations. (up/down, in/out, CW/CCW)
8 - circle orientations. (up/down, fwd/bkwd, CW/CCW)
16 - 8s orientations without center up/down transition, (up/down, fwd/left/bkwd/right, CW/CCW)
(32 if you allow roll/flip between upright/invert at center of 8)

[cquillen]

Originally Posted by btheli

I'm working on perfecting funnels now myself, and yes you do need to fly both the aileron and the elevator, i.e., corrections are constantly needed to both (and the tail) to keep everything on course and looking good.

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

Normal to balance elevator in funnels to control bank angle.

Fair enough, but for me at least, forward/backward circles are "pulled" around with just the elevator. Very little aileron is needed. Just little nudges and back to center.

Tail in/out feels totally different. I have to continuously "pull" both aileron and elevator at the same time to fly the circle. The cyclic feels pointed towards corner. If I don't constantly hold the tail down the disk flips towards the center.

[btheli]

I hear what you're saying, and I know what you mean, but I believe it's just the feeling that is different and not the mechanics or the aerodynamics. The orientation of the tail is really the only difference; otherwise, you are just "flying the disc" around in a circle. In fact, you can have the tail pointed anywhere (not just the 4 orientations we're discussing here) and do the same thing. Put that tail in motion and you have the pirouetting circle: A beautiful thing done by a pro, and a miserable mess done by me...but watch out because I'm working on it!

I've spent hours flying "simple" forward and backward circles working very hard to get proficient at keeping the tail boom perfectly parallel to the ground and the heli "locked in" (not sliding inwards or outwards). I've gotten pretty good at it and can increase/decrease altitude, shift the center of the circle wherever I want, and make the circle bigger or smaller.

Now with the tail up or down (and/or skids in or out) I can also perform these maneuvers, but I'm much sloppier because instead of relying mostly on elevator, I'm relying mostly on aileron. There's really no difference between the two...it just feels strange to me and I'm not as good at translating what I see on the screen into movements of the sticks. I just need more practice.

[Raptorapture]

Originally Posted by cquillen

I saw some other post, don't remember where, that said there are 16 funnel orientations. I only count 8. Skids in/out * tail in/out * cw/ccw. Does anyone know how there could be 16?

I believe rotate tail 90 degrees in each direction and get Nose first/Tail first.

Edit: oops, late post.