HC sue KDS - Flymentor is a counterfeit

[Stealthlude]

Stuff like this happens all the time...not just in this industry.


Funny enough the vast amount of people buying Trex 450 clones (EXI and CopterX) have no complaints of buying clones. It’s a 100% blatant knockoff, but no ones seems to really care or they just look the other way, what makes this any different?


Not that I condone this type of activity, but the market has driven KDS unit a quick success, people don’t want to spend $500 on a HC unit, I don’t. The price point is what makes KDS attractive.


Are the KDS units still shipping?

[JohnAu]

People who are serious about their Scale and AP heli's will buy the Helicommand.

KDS RELIABILITY VERY BAD = VERY UNATTRACTIVE

JohnAu

[cameraman]

Hmm...

Low price, erratic behaviour, PIT to setup. Didn't we recently go through the same with the GU-365?

Or is my synicism just another sign of advancing years?

[Kepler]

Originally Posted by Stealthlude

Stuff like this happens all the time...not just in this industry.


Funny enough the vast amount of people buying Trex 450 clones (EXI and CopterX) have no complaints of buying clones. It’s a 100% blatant knockoff, but no ones seems to really care or they just look the other way, what makes this any different?


Not that I condone this type of activity, but the market has driven KDS unit a quick success, people don’t want to spend $500 on a HC unit, I don’t. The price point is what makes KDS attractive.

I think this is a valid point. I also don’t condone this type of activity but often it can have a positive effect for the company affected by the clone.

Take Align for example. There are 100% knock off clones all over the place. However, what Align looses in sales of Helicopter kits, I am sure they make up 10 fold in sales of spare parts and upgrades. Lets face it, who out there who has an Align clone, hasn’t replaced some of the parts with Align parts.

In the case of Flymentor and Helicommand, the way I see it, the cheaper price of Flymentor will stimulate the sale and awareness of stabilization devices. People will understand the virtues of these systems and quite likely upgrade to a Helicommand for their more expensive investments leaving the Mentor in their 450s for a bit of fun.

[Hoverup]

Originally Posted by Kepler

I think this is a valid point. I also don’t condone this type of activity but often it can have a positive effect for the company affected by the clone.

Take Align for example. There are 100% knock off clones all over the place. However, what Align looses in sales of Helicopter kits, I am sure they make up 10 fold in sales of spare parts and upgrades. Lets face it, who out there who has an Align clone, hasn’t replaced some of the parts with Align parts.

In the case of Flymentor and Helicommand, the way I see it, the cheaper price of Flymentor will stimulate the sale and awareness of stabilization devices. People will understand the virtues of these systems and quite likely upgrade to a Helicommand for their more expensive investments leaving the Mentor in their 450s for a bit of fun.

Well stated Kepler. I agree.

[702nitro]

I totally disagree with the statments made above. Align has every right to pursue legal action against these companys that exploit their designs and make a profit out of it. Now has Align filed a legal suit against such companys? No! Probably because as previously mentioned they don't care as they are able to generate enough profit in parts and upgrades.

In the case of helicommand vs. flymentor, this isn't some cosmetic carbon copying, but rather copying software. Captron has every right to sue these guys butts off, and they did.
Software copying has no place in this business! In fact it would have an inverse negative impact on the entire hobby. It prevents legitimate companies with the resources to design, write code, test, R&D, and so forth. You take this equation out, and all that's left is a mediocre Chinese company with a sub-par product that is poorly designed with poor software algorithms. Is that something you guys want in this hobby??????

So lets eliminate copy cats from this industry in its entirety! Keep legit companies fight against each other in competition, and that will ultimately naturally bring prices down on their own and not because of unfair competition practices.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by 702nitro

I totally disagree with the statments made above. Align has every right to pursue legal action against these companys that exploit their designs and make a profit out of it. Now has Align filed a legal suit against such companys? No! Probably because as previously mentioned they don't care as they are able to generate enough profit in parts and upgrades.

In the case of helicommand vs. flymentor, this isn't some cosmetic carbon copying, but rather copying software. Captron has every right to sue these guys butts off, and they did.
Software copying has no place in this business! In fact it would have an inverse negative impact on the entire hobby. It prevents legitimate companies with the resources to design, write code, test, R&D, and so forth. You take this equation out, and all that's left is a mediocre Chinese company with a sub-par product that is poorly designed with poor software algorithms. Is that something you guys want in this hobby??????

So lets eliminate copy cats from this industry in its entirety! Keep legit companies fight against each other in competition, and that will ultimately naturally bring prices down on their own and not because of unfair competition practices.

I agree with your thoughts on these matters.
But be aware that Align like most other manufacturers are most likely receiving copyright compensation from every clone produced and sold hence you never hear of Align suing other heli manufacturers... So bottom line will most likely be that KDS will pay Captron a % for the using of there software that is being used.

nightflyr

[cameraman]

Legal/moral issues aside, my main concern is that HC claim that the gyro/sensor calibration data has been copied from one unit. That would be the same as assembling a heli from a kit using all the dimensions from the manual and expecting it to fly perfectly without any adjustments.

[702nitro]

I think a more appropriate analogy is this,

Pop a cd into your CD/DVD drive, open up your favorite ISO program and create an .iso file of the cd. Get my drift??????????

[cameraman]

My point is that gyros/accelerometers have to be individually calibrated, the same as blades have to be balanced, to adjust for manufacturing tolerances. If, as HC claim, the calibration data has just been copied then clearly the gyros are not individually calibrated. Maintaining a stable hover requires far more accuracy than a HH tail gyro, I doubt that you would even notice a 1 degree yaw error in heading but you would certainly see the effect in the pitch or roll axis.

[cameraman]

If you really want to see what goes into a 3 axis stabilisation system, have a read here http://www.diydrones.com/forum/topic...-report-on-uav what these guys are doing is just plain awesome. As well as basic stabilisation, they've got GPS waypoint navigation, automatic return to home in the event if radio failure, automatic altitude control. Makes the commercial products look pedestrian in comparison.

[MatLi]

crap.

As much as I respect intellectual property and associated laws, i hope KDS finds a way to keep making the flymentor. There needs to be reasonably priced competition in this area.

This still does not give KDS the option to just use firmware/hardware/know-how which has been developed by other companies or individuals. How would you feel if your idea and the result of your work is just being copied by some jerk. I fully respect what the team at Helicommand did and this is just another example of big copycat China. For me, a reason to never ever look at KDS products again.

[raflim]

HC has won an injunction against KDS. Before buying the flymentor you should consider the risk. Your shipment maybe confiscated at the customs.

http://www.helicommand.com/index.php...mid=50&lang=en

[Leandro]

Originally Posted by raflim

HC has won an injunction against KDS. Before buying the flymentor you should consider the risk. Your shipment maybe confiscated at the customs.

http://www.helicommand.com/index.php...mid=50&lang=en

I think that only apply in Germany.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by Leandro

I think that only apply in Germany.

Would you care to risk $200.00 + shipping to test that theory out???

The dealer I purchased it from has now block the sale of the Flymentor pending the court decision, and has graciously refunded my purchase upon the return of my Flymentor which has malfunctioned.

nightflyr

[Leandro]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

Would you care to risk $200.00 + shipping to test that theory out???

The dealer I purchased it from has now block the sale of the Flymentor pending the court decision, and has graciously refunded my purchase upon the return of my Flymentor which has malfunctioned.

nightflyr

No thanks, I buy my flymentor before the problem. But why you return yours? in your previus post you say that your flymentor works fine.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by Leandro

No thanks, I buy my flymentor before the problem. But why you return yours? in your previus post you say that your flymentor works fine.

It malfunctioned and almost crashed my heli.

nightflyr

[raflim]

Originally Posted by Leandro

I think that only apply in Germany.

Intellectual Property Rights are covered by international treaties. Even Ebay prohibits selling counterfiet items. Check this out.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...operty-ov.html

[MarkWebber]

Is the 860 a clone? yep

For anyone thinking it's ok to steal someone else's work, please post your home address that we may come steal the fruits of your labor. After all, won't it help make you work harder in the future? You'll just become a greater value to society, right?

[Kepler]

Originally Posted by Andika

I would never buy a chinese clone of the HC from germany and install it on my expensive helicopter..

Kepler didn't answer the JohnAu question when he asked if this system was made with a SMM gyro or a chinese GY401 clone or a piezo electronic gyro ?
Wonder if the 860 gyro is a clone of Spartan 760 gyro ?

Mate, I've got no idea. I just test flew the thing.

In relation to the 860 gyro and the Spartan 760, I have both. They fly exactly the same, look the same and I use the Spartan instruction manual to program the 860 so I think there is a fair chance.