trying From tail-in to all 8s and funnels in 6 months

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by cquillen

So I will probably need to go back down on the sim speed after adding collective in and work back up to 100%?

I've been doing flips and rolls in play time, but I've been going all the way around back to upright. Just doing the neg pitch "bumps" to maintain altitude while passing through inverted. I think holding the collective stick below center for hover is going to be very weird. My muscle memory is going to freak out.

I've also noticed that while the piro hovers do teach orientation and automatic correction, the skill doesn't instantly transfer to traveling flight corrections. I had been ignoring the lazy eights and just doing roll/flips. I figured if I could hover then I could fly.

WRONG!

I finally got around to doing some upright lazy 8s tail in and they were super ugly. And moving around nose in at all was super uncomfortable. So I starting practicing them in earnest. I've got to the point where my turns are pretty smooth both with tail fixed and when turning into direction of flight. And guess what? I noticed an immediate improvement with my piro hovers after just a couple lazy 8 focused play times!

Anyways... I guess my point is that the hover skills DO transfer to moving, but it still takes some work. It doesn't just happen for free. AND moving flight skills feed back into and improve the hover skills. So you shouldn't do hovers exclusively like I was.

Now I'm working on the lazy 8s nose-in (no rudder in the turns). I couldn't even keep a straight line back and forth to start with. Now I'm finally getting it widened into something that looks sorta 8ish. It still feels really strained though.

I'm actually going to expand this "no rudder lazy eights" step into all orientations: tail-in, nose-in, nose-left, nose-right, center going out, center coming in, and all those again inverted (once I can do inverted at all). 16 different combinations in all.

I'll still do the proper banked circle lesson also of course. The fixed tail circles I'm talking about are more about just controlling the birds in general while moving in any orientation.

You got it.

When adding collecting inverted, start with slightly slower sim speed and work way back up. (yes it feels weird at first).

FF and hover are different but the same. Hover gives you a way out if things are going wrong (add height and stabilize). As you progress you find each transition needs to be practiced.

I like the idea of different orientation, no rudder lazy 8's. Good thinking. One thing you will find is that the tail will move around a little anyway due to rotor angles used to do turns. It's possible to piro a heading hold heli without moving the rudder by doing and even circle on the cyclics (fun to try at times).

Best of luck.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I have been getting loads of stick time this summer in real life with my 150 and Nano. Great trainers at my level. However, I have been letting that replace the SIM. That has resulted in more crashing I am sure.

However, I underestimated how much I was not SIMming while getting so much flying in. I had been skipping it for weeks now.

Now, the last two weeks have been rainy and windy...and I have been SIMming again. First of all, getting some good practice inverted. But secondly, I really tightened up my circuits and eights. Specifically what was just mentioned...the lazy 8's in other orientations. Awesome exercises that you can progress through quickly. And they are very good for you. But man can I do some nice banked circuits and 8's in the SIM now!

Anyway, I got my first real in two weeks again today...and man have I improved dramatically in these two weeks. I was confidently flying today like never before.

Gotta love the SIM.

I do love this training course, even if I am a little behind. Maybe mine will be inverted 8's and funnels in a year...but that's a'ight.

obi

[cquillen]

Originally Posted by Obijuan Kenobe

I have been getting loads of stick time this summer in real life with my 150 and Nano.

Which 150 do you have? How well does it handle this training program? I have a mcpx, but it doesn't like to fly some of the orientations this course demands. It's tail is jerky flying sideways. Particularly when flying against the tail trust. I'm sure part of this is due to my lack of skill though.

Been thinking about getting something with a better tail.


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[Obijuan Kenobe]

My previous post was only to make the point that you might occasionally stall out in progress flying too much in real life.

Sounds crazy, but one of the strengths of this 'program' is the combination of REAL and SIM. This combination really works.

While you can learn exclusively with real flying, training gear, etc....this is superior if you primary goal is any level of real mastery.



My break from SIMming due to weather and flying opportunities led to LESS progress than when I was flying less in real life but SIMming regularly.




The Trex 150 flashed with BLheli is an amazing trainer, as is the mCPX BL in my humble opinion. The key with micros is to be past the TH beginner bailouts. I also think it's important to train yourself to fly conservative in real life. It might not be quite as thrilling, but it is infinitely more affordable (and probably a good habit as you move up in size?).

Once you can fly in at least tail in well...and you consistently stay within your SIM defined skill limits, you can fly any of these with only a few real repairs and very low cost. Again, the key is to master something in the SIM before rolling it out on the field. The fool flies his first flips/circuits/8/inverted hover in real life, or so says my common sense.

My 150 is highly modified with an HP08 main and 12 magnet bell on the tail and a slightly longer tail boom. I also love my BL Nano. When the weather permits, it is an amazing outdoor trainer for literally anywhere. The key is to have realistic expectation about tail wag. It happens on all motor driven tails.

I have never had a full sized helicopter, so my expectations were never different.

obi

[cquillen]

I've been a 0 crashes on upright for several days now. However the sessions have be marked by wrong corrections and over corrections flailing all around the circle. Somehow I'd eventually manage to settle back down into calmness and stay at zero crashes. This would happen 3-4 times per session.

Something interesting happened during my last session. It was so calm and uneventful that I verified that the sim speed was set at 100% afterwards. I had suspected I'd left it turned down!

I also found myself sorta day dreaming during the session. Didn't have to hyper focus like usual.

Guess something just "clicked" for me.

Anyways... I thought it was cool enough to post about!

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by cquillen

I've been a 0 crashes on upright for several days now. However the sessions have be marked by wrong corrections and over corrections flailing all around the circle. Somehow I'd eventually manage to settle back down into calmness and stay at zero crashes. This would happen 3-4 times per session.

Something interesting happened during my last session. It was so calm and uneventful that I verified that the sim speed was set at 100% afterwards. I had suspected I'd left it turned down!

I also found myself sorta day dreaming during the session. Didn't have to hyper focus like usual.

Guess something just "clicked" for me.

Anyways... I thought it was cool enough to post about!

“You have taken your first step into a larger world.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, A New Hope

I have described before "Auto-pilot". Seems like you have just experienced it. Well done.

Next is when it happens inverted (yes it will happen).

[cquillen]

1st zero crash inverted piro session at full speed and automatic collective this morning!!!

I know it doesn't really count without collective but I'm still psyched! Woot!

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by cquillen

1st zero crash inverted piro session at full speed and automatic collective this morning!!!

I know it doesn't really count without collective but I'm still psyched! Woot!

It counts. 3 more and it's time to add collective.

Well done.

[cquillen]

I got 3rd zero crash inverted without collective last night. I decided to go ahead and turn off collective control the morning. Wow it's hard.

Causes a positive feedback loop with my existing collective reflexes. Model sinks a bit, stick goes up, model sinks faster, stick goes up some more, wham! in the dirt she goes. Or turns into a rocket ship if the bird starts to rise and I start lowering the stick.

Pretty funny actually. I know I'm doing it and why it's wrong, but my fingers refuse to listen to reason. "The heli is going up so we're going down. We don't care what you say."

29 crashes.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by cquillen

I got 3rd zero crash inverted without collective last night. I decided to go ahead and turn off collective control the morning. Wow it's hard.

Causes a positive feedback loop with my existing collective reflexes. Model sinks a bit, stick goes up, model sinks faster, stick goes up some more, wham! in the dirt she goes. Or turns into a rocket ship if the bird starts to rise and I start lowering the stick.

Pretty funny actually. I know I'm doing it and why it's wrong, but my fingers refuse to listen to reason. "The heli is going up so we're going down. We don't care what you say."

29 crashes.

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

...
When adding collecting inverted, start with slightly slower sim speed and work way back up. (yes it feels weird at first).
...

Don't say I didn't warn you.

You will get the hang of it soon enough. At least you are not trying to learn cyclics at the same time.

Remember. "Down is up and up is expensive"

Once you get collective, the next adventure is 8 point inverted piros (add rudder control). See how many wrong you get on that (I had LOTS!!!).

[gitbse]

It's cool to follow this post. I still enjoy it, although usually keep my distance. Although I never followed something as structured as Craig's system, I went through every level of learning experience that everybody here is going through. Everybody is learning the bumps in the road with the learning process. However, when you suck it up and stick to it, EVERYTHING pays off in the end. Keep up the good work!

[Himilou]

Originally Posted by jmtyndall

I love the small circles. 80 rotations per minute for 5 minutes one day, then one rotation per minute the next. Trains the reflexes and the precision

How are you getting 80 rotations per minute? Are you using real flight?

[gitbse]

That's only 480 degrees per second. 1 1/4 rotation per second. Not that fast, really. My sk540 is set to 600/sec on my 700. So it's a little over half rudder for mine.

[jmtyndall]

On the sim, I just set it. Please note that heli x seems to think 180 degrees is a rotation. So for a real bird this is about 240 degrees per second. Ideally I will end up training for 720deg/sec

[KSHeli]

Wait til you start flying the sticks in the sim, fly out to far forget orientation (old fart syndrome) and start flying based upon what the heli is doing according to sim inputs. This gets real interesting and actually helps even IRL when you still have good vision of the heli.
Back to the teaching day for me after taking class this summer. I would just fly for relaxation so not much new learning going on, but it really helps when you make a slight dumb thumb, such as inverted climbout and inputting rudder, or performing flips or rolls and inputting some aileron and its amazing no panic setting in and remaining relaxed. The latter move (semi suicide flip) are actually getting fun especially since I'm seeing it earlier and just continue the move, I had one pilot compliment me on the move. But it really tells me I need to get my head screwed on straight and focus more on the flying and stop daydreaming about stuff I need to get done.
So not much IRL advancement this summer, school and sports are on so flight time will be even less. Everyone just keep trudging along and enjoy the advances.

[Himilou]

Im trying to set that through rudder trim. Best I can get is about 16 revs a minute with trim. Guess I could use the rudder stick though

[jmtyndall]

Trim will limit you because thats the nature of trim. You could set up rate mode to give you a pretty good spin. Then flip back to hh to end training irl. However, internationally setting up your tail wrong seems silly to me

The best method is just to use your thumb. Piro rate may not be consistent, but it will be more and more consistent with practice

[cquillen]

It seems like my progress has stalled. I've been doing 4ish sessions a day with breaks in between. I rapidly got to zero crashes upright, then rapidly improved on inverted. But now I seem to have hit a wall getting past the last few crashes inverted and have actually gotten slightly worse at upright. My upright and inverted reflexes are interfering with each other.



Is this the typical pattern that most folks experience with this training program?



I'm at 100% speed with manual collective on both upright and inverted.



My upright sessions are mostly good, they're just not perfect anymore. The new inverted reflexes sneak in occasionally and screw me up. Particularly with the collective. As you can see from the log below I am *mostly* following the recommended sequence of 1 upright to 2 inverted sessions. I've been thinking about switching to a 1 to 1 ratio.



Archmage, how long did it take you and others to merge the separate upright and inverted "modes" into a single set of reflexes?



Log: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I am experiencing exactly this. I started hovering inverted about a month ago. So far, I don't dare to try it IRL...and in the SIM, my upright has regressed.

obi

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by cquillen

...
Archmage, how long did it take you and others to merge the separate upright and inverted "modes" into a single set of reflexes.
...

It took me just over a month to get the inverted to 0 crashes. Looks like you will be there inside a week at your current pace.

It took another month to get it all completely automatic (rare wrong corrections instead of correcting in time). I still get the occasional brain fade when I do not practice though (travel plays hell with schedule).

Just a warning. Do not go too hard at the goal, you can burn out, and it will make you not want to fly for a while. 2 hover sessions a day max for a couple of weeks. Use other time to do fun stuff (play time). Even start on Lesson 6. Go out a fly IRL. Lazy 8's, loops, rolls, rainbows, etc... Have some fun with it. Break it up and enjoy.