Look out Scorpion, there's a new purple motor in town

[Uriah]

Talon 35.

[DoubleCH]

Originally Posted by boofy

after asking about the stock esc with this motor i have since ordered one along with slant pinions for it. not unhappy with the stocker as it is more than adequate for my flying ability but it is only a matter of time before the stocker fails causing a crash. scorpion motors are less kv than these (the recommended 2208 motor), just as expensive and hard to get. cant wait to try this one out and compare to stock.

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...01&postcount=7
Easy to get in less than a week at less than 1/3 the price. Forget about the 2208 which is NOT "the recommended motor for the 300X". 2213 or higher is.

It's easy to make a powerful motor. What's harder is to make it efficient and durable. Key ingredients for such:
- thin metal used for stator lamination to reduce eddy current and improve efficiency
- thin multi-strand wire windings to reduce eddy current and improve efficiency
- oversize bottom bearing (closer to pinion) to improve load rating and reduce ball speed
- others include good magnets, wires, and integrated fan design

I'm surprised Lynx chose single-wire winding and triple bearings instead of oversize bearing. What's the lamination thickness? Scorpion/Hyperion uses 0.2mm. Most common motors use double that. While I've seen some Scorpion motors run hot on hard 3D (perhaps wrong size used, perhaps wrong ESC settings), most of them are super efficient and run cool with the right setup/settings. My HS2213 pulls 34A easy with 13T can do medium to hard 3D for 4 mins and still draw only about 750mAh and came down with barely any temperature over ambient. I can see it possibly running 4 mins easy no sweat at 3500HS with 14T which is too fast for my taste. Sure you can fit a more powerful motor in, but the limiting factor is the battery on the power system (assuming your frame is stiff enough to not disintegrate at high HS). You better have some high C-rating batteries.

[Dylwad]

Originally Posted by DoubleCH

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...01&postcount=7
Easy to get in less than a week at less than 1/3 the price. Forget about the 2208 which is NOT "the recommended motor for the 300X". 2213 or higher is.

It's easy to make a powerful motor. What's harder is to make it efficient and durable. Key ingredients for such:
- thin metal used for stator lamination to reduce eddy current and improve efficiency
- thin multi-strand wire windings to reduce eddy current and improve efficiency
- oversize bottom bearing (closer to pinion) to improve load rating and reduce ball speed
- others include good magnets, wires, and integrated fan design

I'm surprised Lynx chose single-wire winding and triple bearings instead of oversize bearing. What's the lamination thickness? Scorpion/Hyperion uses 0.2mm. Most common motors use double that. While I've seen some Scorpion motors run hot on hard 3D (perhaps wrong size used, perhaps wrong ESC settings), most of them are super efficient and run cool with the right setup/settings. My HS2213 pulls 34A easy with 13T can do medium to hard 3D for 4 mins and still draw only about 750mAh and came down with barely any temperature over ambient. I can see it possibly running 4 mins easy no sweat at 3500HS with 14T which is too fast for my taste. Sure you can fit a more powerful motor in, but the limiting factor is the battery on the power system (assuming your frame is stiff enough to not disintegrate at high HS). You better have some high C-rating batteries.

Single strand winds are generally preferred over multi strand, the more copper the better, more copper=lower resistance=higher efficiency. Take the enamel coating on the thin multi wires into account.

Look at the bigger scorpion and kontronik motors, all single strand, heavy gauge.

The align motors do very well after being re wound single strand.

Multi strand is easier for a machine to wind.

[DoubleCH]

Originally Posted by Dylwad

Single strand winds are generally preferred over multi strand, the more copper the better, more copper=lower resistance=higher efficiency. Take the enamel coating on the thin multi wires into account.

Look at the bigger scorpion and kontronik motors, all single strand, heavy gauge.

The align motors do very well after being re wound single strand.

Multi strand is easier for a machine to wind.

Single-strand is more prefered when you need all out power cramped in a small stator because like you said to reduce the space taken by the enamels. More copper = lower resistance = higher power capability but not necessarily higher efficiency. For the same copper fill, multi-strand is more efficient. There's enough room in the 2213 for multi-strand. No need for single-strand unless you want to cramp lot more power capability in the same stator, which means lower efficiency and heat.

[Dylwad]

Efficiency IS power, you don't put more copper in to make more power, you do it to make higher efficiency, which means for the same weight and size you can get more power out of it before it overheats. A 5%difference in efficiency is huge, the gains from more copper usually trump the small additional losses from using single strand.

[jbrandt]

Originally Posted by PhenixFord

Then we would all have to move over to the Nitro section.

There's no kerosene section?

[v58fuy]

Deleted

[DoubleCH]

Originally Posted by Dylwad

Efficiency IS power, you don't put more copper in to make more power, you do it to make higher efficiency, which means for the same weight and size you can get more power out of it before it overheats. A 5%difference in efficiency is huge, the gains from more copper usually trump the small additional losses from using single strand.

You put more copper in to have more power "capability" which means efficiency. How much power "draw" depends on other things like kV, gearing, etc. I'm talking about overall winding wire total cross-section area being the same, multi-strand is more efficient than single-strand because of reduced eddy current. You're talking different factors. Besides, total cross-section area of wire winding not just affects efficiency. It absolutely affects power output characteristics. Although in idle no load condition, cross-section area winding doesn't affect power output much because it's all inductive load and the effective current is about the same regardless of overall wire diameter. The difference is when load is applied. RPM drops and current draw increases. The bigger the wire diameter the bigger the current increases. So you can't consider just efficiency when choosing overall wire diameter.

[v58fuy]

Originally Posted by DoubleCH

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...01&postcount=7
Easy to get in less than a week at less than 1/3 the price. Forget about the 2208 which is NOT "the recommended motor for the 300X". 2213 or higher is.

It's easy to make a powerful motor. What's harder is to make it efficient and durable. Key ingredients for such:
- thin metal used for stator lamination to reduce eddy current and improve efficiency
- thin multi-strand wire windings to reduce eddy current and improve efficiency
- oversize bottom bearing (closer to pinion) to improve load rating and reduce ball speed
- others include good magnets, wires, and integrated fan design

I'm surprised Lynx chose single-wire winding and triple bearings instead of oversize bearing. What's the lamination thickness? Scorpion/Hyperion uses 0.2mm. Most common motors use double that. While I've seen some Scorpion motors run hot on hard 3D (perhaps wrong size used, perhaps wrong ESC settings), most of them are super efficient and run cool with the right setup/settings. My HS2213 pulls 34A easy with 13T can do medium to hard 3D for 4 mins and still draw only about 750mAh and came down with barely any temperature over ambient. I can see it possibly running 4 mins easy no sweat at 3500HS with 14T which is too fast for my taste. Sure you can fit a more powerful motor in, but the limiting factor is the battery on the power system (assuming your frame is stiff enough to not disintegrate at high HS). You better have some high C-rating batteries.

Finally a voice of reason

David

[Uriah]

DoubleCH is the ultimate setup guru in this forum.

[nartac]

Originally Posted by Uriah

DoubleCH is the ultimate setup guru in this forum.

LOL, so is Dylan (Dylwad).

It's interesting to see the debate between the two. You might learn a thing or two

[Uriah]

I know who Dylan is - the Astroid Design guru. But anywho... They weren't debating... They were discussing... Gurus like them make it sound like a debate, but it's really just them thinking out loud to each other while the rest of us cower in the corner.

[sn00p]

Let's see what Luca has too say?

I do tire of people jumping in to early and slamming products before they have even seen let alone use an item... Don't get me wrong I'm all for questioning and I regularly do but I refrain from slamming

[DoubleCH]

Don't get me wrong. Dylan knows the stuff well. I just wanted to clarify the point that while it's efficient to cramp as much copper in as a little stator space as possible by using single-strand windings to get the most power with limited space, it may not be the necessary/best solution for the 300X.

I just came back from flying and have played with different settings with the HS-2213-3585/13T setup. Even with very high timing to boost power output and 3250HS governed I still get 3.8xV with my 1500 packs after hard flying for 4:30 no bog (no HS drop even on full 12* collective punch-outs and hard-stop tic-tocs with 252mm blades). The multi-strand HS motor is more powerful than the P2632 yet I get more charge left after harder flying. That's why I'm surprised the need for single-strand winding to cramp even more power into an already bigger stator of the EOX. I understand the EOX was used to do the 4000+ HS flights but is 4000+ HS that desirable for a 300X that you can get only 3min flight time or have to use a much bigger flight pack? I find just by running thin airfoil 252mm blades, that frees up more usable power already. Even at 3250HS, today I was able to do super loop (1g loop as round as possible) almost as tall as I can with my 450 DFC... with reserve (like 120ft tall). And I'm not even on 14T yet. Is a much more powerful motor that desirable for the 300X?

[Uriah]

Originally Posted by DoubleCH

[...] I understand the EOX was used to do the 4000+ HS flights but is 4000+ HS that desirable for a 300X that you can get only 3min flight time or have to use a much bigger flight pack? I find just by running thin airfoil 252mm blades, that frees up more usable power already. Even at 3250HS, today I was able to do super loop (1g loop as round as possible) almost as tall as I can with my 450 DFC... with reserve (like 120ft tall). And I'm not even on 14T yet. Is a much more powerful motor that desirable for the 300X?

I'm not a setup guru like you, but I hope I can still offer my opinions on flight performance.



In response to your question - it depends entirely on your flying style. I've stated in this forum before that I've found a headspeed of 3300-3500RPM to be more than adequate for extreme 3D on the 300X. The only reason pilots like me want even more headspeed is for faster and crisper collective response for smack maneuvers like tic toc pyramids, traveling tic tocs, and piro tic tocs. It should be noted that all of those maneuvers are very susceptible to bogging, so a powerful motor is ideal. Past maneuvers like that, higher RPMs aren't going to be that important or beneficial. Pilots that prefer smooth/elegant 3D over smack 3D will probably prefer <= 3500 RPM. Sport pilots can obviously get away with a lot less. The fact that a very experienced pilot such as yourself is happily running on 3250RPM is a testament to this. For my flying style, I prefer much higher RPMs - if I could govern past my current 3700RPM on my current setup, I would.

[xokia]

Originally Posted by burkep

I for one will be buying it, if it's only for the extra bearing. I don't know anything about the wiring, but having an extra bearing, is what I have been thinking of since taking up this hobby. Just that one single mod has got to be good.

Peter

Lol

Originally Posted by Nelsonisms

I won't speak to price or value as that is going to be different for everybody. What this motor has over the Scorpion 2213-14 (and Hyperion 2213-3585) is that it's a higher KV motor. So for those looking for more headspeed in a motor sized well for the 300X this could be a good option.

Except the 300x can't even handle the scorpion head speeds without vibrating itself to death. And you want to add more head speed? Might as well add a new frame to support that motor.

I also don't know how lynx claims you can run the stock 25 amp esc. It's a 400 watt motor paired to a esc capable of 315 watts max at 100% efficiency. That just doesn't make much sense to recommend.

Originally Posted by Uriah

Based on what I've observed, my biggest "gripe" with Lynx (or any other aftermarket heli company for that matter) is the way business is conducted and presented. I would love to help you out with improving the English and grammar on your product descriptions. I would love to see some photographs once in a while on the production process of some of your parts, or at least of the facilities themselves. I would love to see a little more information posted about the factories you contract with for part production. I would love to see Lynx, MicroHeli, Xtreme Productions, RakonHeli, Fusuno, etc. come out of the woodwork and explain what the hell is going on with the way these parts are being manufactured and distributed.

Just the other day I discovered that I could buy the same CF blades MicroHeli is selling for the 300X at 1/3 the price MicroHeli is selling them for (see this thread for details)... The fact that RakonHeli and Fusuno are selling what appears to be the exact same plastic blades that Lynx is selling... It even looks like Fusuno is selling the same canopies that Lynx is selling (or at least from the same fiberglass molds). What the hell is going on here?

You see what I'm getting at? I don't care if you're contracting with other companies for your part production. There's nothing wrong with that. But it seems shady because the process is never explained. For example, the plastic blades... Is there a contract or royalty agreement that is allowing RakonHeli and Fusuno to use the same molds for their blades as Lynx does, or are they simply stealing your intellectual property rights in a country that won't enforce them? I've seen so much re-branding and cloning in this hobby that I have no idea whose stealing from who, or if any theft is taking place at all.

Sorry it's just not going to happen. Who a company contracts with is also considered intellectual property. If every company knew where to go to get cheap parts made that make your market tougher to compete in. Your business contacts should be treated with the same protections as any other IP. Unfortunately in many other parts of the world the have very light copyright laws. For instance in China you only need to change 2 things to copy and sell someone else's IP. Color can be one thing and maybe a graphic being the other. Nothing really technically advanced about producing a plastic blade but if you out source to foreign countries it's just about guaranteed your design will be copied.

[DoubleCH]

Originally Posted by Uriah

In response to your question - it depends entirely on your flying style.

The reason I'm satisfied with 3250HS for now is that I can't do the moves you mentioned. If I have 1/4 these skills maybe I'll consider running 300X at 4000rpm. But then, in that case I'll want to do it in something bigger than the 300X.

TAREQ ALSAADI TESTiNG (TAREQ EDITION) MOTOR FROM SCORPiON (3 min 23 sec)

[v58fuy]

Originally Posted by Uriah

I'm not a setup guru like you, but I hope I can still offer my opinions on flight performance.



In response to your question - it depends entirely on your flying style. I've stated in this forum before that I've found a headspeed of 3300-3500RPM to be more than adequate for extreme 3D on the 300X. The only reason pilots like me want even more headspeed is for faster and crisper collective response for smack maneuvers like tic toc pyramids, traveling tic tocs, and piro tic tocs. It should be noted that all of those maneuvers are very susceptible to bogging, so a powerful motor is ideal. Past maneuvers like that, higher RPMs aren't going to be that important or beneficial. Pilots that prefer smooth/elegant 3D over smack 3D will probably prefer <= 3500 RPM. Sport pilots can obviously get away with a lot less. The fact that a very experienced pilot such as yourself is happily running on 3250RPM is a testament to this. For my flying style, I prefer much higher RPMs - if I could govern past my current 3700RPM on my current setup, I would.

Uriah, your flying skills are clearly better than most other pilots, and this was my original point. The new EOX motor appears to be aimed at pilots with your ability, and there aren't many of those around.

With your ability and head speed demands, you are happy to run a fully upgraded helicopter to withstand the punishment you can exert - but for the rest of us who don't want to upgrade the whole heli, ESC, batteries and then still only get like 3 mins, this motor doesn't appear to offer any benefit over something like the Hobbyking or Scorpion motors.

The 300x simply wasn't designed for the sorts of power we are now talking about, a stock 300x is 220W and a stock 450Pro is 500W. The 300x is plastic framed and headed heli, the 450 is carbon frame and metal head - the Lynx motor would see 430W on tap in the 300x.

The stock battery in a 450 is 2200mah, whilst the 300x is 1350 mah - and yet we want to put a motor in the 300x which is only 70W less than the 450!!!

David

[boofy]

everyone seems to forget that you dont need to run at 100% throttle. a stock 300x is only meant to be run even with the stock motor at 70% (due to rubbish main blades). why cant one of these motors also be only run at 70%. i have upgraded the mains and tail blades to the lynx ones and still only run at 70% as i find no real reason to run any higher due to my flying ability. as far as i am concerned, the stock motor is fine and mine has no vibes etc. only thing i have done to it is remove the sticker and install lynx slant gears.

i have purchased this motor with the intent to still run at 70% like stock but i wont have the lingering feeling of the stock motor failing one day whilst in the air even though as stated above that i am perfectly happy with stock at the moment.

obviously efficiency of motors comes into play when not running 100% etc but does it really matter when i am not a pro pilot nor even close for that matter.

it would be interesting to hear from lynx regarding all the comments that have come around recently. i am sure that this motor will be overkill for most of us but like anything, it is always best to have a little bit of "head room" than use all the power.

[DoubleCH]

If you're running a 400W+ motor at say 70% it'll still make more power than stock motor at 70%. If you prefer stock motor at 70% only, you'll probably have to run this motor at 55% throttle which even if you run BLHeli-code ESC or ESC with AFW for better low throttle efficiency you're still wasting battery charge over the HK/HS-2213 at say 70% throttle for similar effect at <1/3 the price, run lighter and cooler.

"it is always best to have a little bit of head room than use all the power." That's where the P2632 or HK/HS2213 come in. For your requirement, even those 2 motors will give you more than a little bit of head room. The EOX motor is not a little bit of head room. It's a lot of head room wasted in form of extra weight, stress on battery and ESC for your requirement. What's more important than headroom? A matching system as a whole.

I just dug out an old video of my $8 P2632 motor governed at 3100rpm HS. That's already more than a little bit of head room over your requirement. I can tell you the $17 HS-2213 motor is easily more head room over that. What more head room do you need?

My Blade 300X Flight #57 Flown by a Much Better Pilot (2 min 11 sec)