Lockout/Brownout Problems - Static is a #1 issue

[ChasHeliCop]

That was great SoCal. Unfortunately, I am kind of messed up until this stuff wears off, I can't get a reading on my main gear anymore. The "Live-Wire" I used says 12-600 V AC/CA 50-60 Hz.

[Socal500]

Here is a video showing not detection on the grounded boom, tail shaft and front pulley shaft to frame and neg of ESC.

http://www.socalsurfs.com/trex500/nostaticboom.wmv

[Finless]

Originally Posted by Socal500

Here is a video of static buildup on the gears just turning the head by hand. This device has a range of 50-1000 volts so this shows that I am able to generate at least 50 VAC at very low RPM. Using the same probe I spooled the heli up with the blades removed. Still get detection the gears but nothing on the tail or belt.. even touching them directly.

http://www.socalsurfs.com/trex500/static2.wmv

Shawn... that rocked man! Good detective work there. I still wonder however if the gear can build enough potential to arc. Realize that it takes 10,000 volts to jump an arc 1/4" of on inch (roughly). So while the gear is developing a potential the question is, is it storing it somewhere that can develop enough potential to arc to something? I believe the boom is large enough to do this but is the main gear?

Also this make me wonder if the new metal bearing blocks would eliminate this? Might be something to test and try grounding a main shaft bearing to the frame and see what it does?

Anyway man.... good work....

Bob

[Socal500]

Thanks.. Im just following up on what others have done and trying to show spray is not the only fix. Im trying to think of a way to ground the the main bearings so that there is continuity through the shaft down to the gears.. I just wonder how conductive the gears are and if it will make a dif.

Also want to point out to others using this device for testing. It is very senstive to surroundings. You touching the object being tested, you holding another electronic device, such as a comcorder running off AC, for example plugged into the wall, even in the other hand, can skew your results.


Is there anyone out there running metal bearing blocks that might be able to swing by?

[Socal500]

I just grounded the bearings and had condinuity on the shaft and even checked the outer edge of the thrust bearing housing or whatever its called. So the ground does not transfer to the gears and the static is still generated.

Im actually satisfied with my grounded system the way it is. I think the gears and belt were working together maybe and under certain conditions (prime for static), there is a static problem. I have flown more times now since grounding my boom and tailshaft than I did before my first incident so I think in my case the grouding is all that is needed.

[Finless]

I have flown more times now since grounding my boom and tailshaft than I did before my first incident so I think in my case the grouding is all that is needed.

Completely agree at this point and your not the first to have completely solved their lockout issues with boom and pulley grounding.

You and Chas have really done a great service to the folks that were in doubt this was a real problem even though it had been discussed WEEKS ago. The proof is out there now and so is the solution.

Now I gotta do what I can to convince Align to have a hard look at this and a fix so users don't have to go to the trouble.

Bob

[psindrup]

Originally Posted by Socal500

Here is a video showing not detection on the grounded boom, tail shaft and front pulley shaft to frame and neg of ESC.
http://www.socalsurfs.com/trex500/nostaticboom.wmv

Great work!

Just a thought: Would it be possible to have "something" touching the main gear - like a copper "brush" - that itself is grounded to the motor mount/ESC negative, to discharge the static.

Come on all you brilliant engineering heli fliers - it is time to show your craftsmanship.

Peter

[Socal500]

Bob Im thinking the pinion might be the answer. I can get continuity to ground on the motor shaft but not on the pinion itself. Im wondering if the pinion was grounded if this would do the trick. I do not have any other pinions to test.

These are coated so thick.. including the inside.

[Duff Boy]

Sorry for been a noob here , But has any other electric helicopters had this problem ? I'm thinking of getting rid of my 500 for something with less bugs , The money I have spent on it so far I could of got a Raptor E-620 .

[Socal500]

Yes others have had this problem.

[Rototerrier]

My heli just dropped like a rock from about 10 feet high. Only bent the right skid...I got so lucky. Is there a video out there showing a solution to this. I had already sprayed with solicon, this was around my 12th flight and I had thought I was good...oh well. I mean it just shut down and dropped. I guess I was very very lucky that I was low and not moving.

I straightened the blades and spun it back up as if nothing every happened. Where do I go, what do I do?

[Finless]

Yes this is NOT new to the 500 it is just showing up more on the 500 because of the location of components being so close to the areas that allow a static discharge and how people run the wiring etc....

There were at least 5 Trex500's out at the field yesterday and NONE of them did any grounding and yet had no issue... But conditions this weekend were not dry.

Bottom line is do the very simple grounding and eliminate this as a possible issue! It's not hard to do and is worth the the risk of not doing it.

Bob

[Finless]

See this post

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=59035

This is how I reccomend doing it. It's post #11

bob

[Socal500]

Well did my best with the align gear I have. I was able to get continuity from the gear to ground but I dont know about the teeth since they are coated. I dont think the gear is going to make a difference.

[Rototerrier]

Are we positive that grounding the tail pulleys will solve the problem? This really scared the spit out of me, just seeing my prize bird falling. I don't want to be flying scared. I had already done all the research and as it was falling I knew exactly what was happening. It was a horrible feeling. I just couldn't believe it didn't do more damage, I went from freaked to elated all within 10 seconds. What a day!

[Socal500]

I dont think you will get a guarantee from anyone. I can only say that..

Grounding tailshaft/bearing to the boom
Front shaft/bearing to boom
Boom to frame
and
Negative of ESC to motor plate screw/frame

has worked for me and another 500 belonging to my friend.

If one accepts that this detector shows static on the boom, belt and frame from the earlier videos, they should also see that grounding as above showed no static on the frame, boom and belt, etc..

Static is still showing on the main gears. Is it building enough? I dont think anyone will know that until it can be accurately measured or they actually see it.

[ChasHeliCop]

Great job Socal.....

I had rain most of the day here, so it did NOT make for idea conditions. I have a new conclusion from what I found today. I believe the CF frame itself has become the collection "globe", "ball" etc.. I finally got some static back into the gears after 10 flights.

Also, if the gears are made of nylon and vinyl (pvc) these two materials are optimal in the Van de Graaff generator,

Bob, do you think you could find out the materials used in the gears and / or the boom block material itself.

[bobby619]

if you have the metal hex bolts in your tail boom case, can you just gound the bearing to that?

[Finless]

Hmmm I doubt I will be able to find out but I will ask. I bet I get told "plastic".

Bob

[ChasHeliCop]

One last question, before I go back to the garage. When you were buolding your Hurricaine, you had someone make you upgraded gears..... if I am not mistaken, I thought I read that somewhere on here. If so, can you see if they can make a replacement tail drive gear from aluminum ?

Based on this information:

Some atoms hold on to their electrons more tightly than others do. How strongly matter holds on to its electrons determines its place in the triboelectric series. If a material is more apt to give up electrons when in contact with another material, it is more positive in the triboelectric series. If a material is more apt to "capture" electrons when in contact with another material, it is more negative in the triboelectric series.
The following table shows you the triboelectric series for many materials you find around the house. Positive items in the series are at the top, and negative items are at the bottom:

• Human hands (usually too moist, though) Very positive
• Rabbit Fur
• Glass
• Human hair
• Nylon
• Wool
• Fur
• Lead
• Silk
• Aluminum
• Paper
• Cotton
• Steel Neutral
• Wood
• Amber
• Hard rubber
• Nickel, Copper
• Brass, Silver
• Gold, Platinum
• Polyester
• Styrene (Styrofoam)
• Saran Wrap
• Polyurethane
• Polyethylene (like Scotch Tape)
• Polypropylene
• Vinyl (PVC)
• Silicon
• Teflon Very negative