FBL Dampers and Blade selection?

[BobOD]

Just my 2 cents here. Of course dampening is a benefit to a well designed set of mechanics and gyros. To think that a gyro / servo control system can respond quickly enough to dampen the vibrations that even the best head setup will produce is...well...just plain silly. In fact, the gyros are programmed to ignore frequencies that the designers know the control system could not possibly compensate for. It is true that some gyros do seem to perform better with stiff dampening but it is my belief that this is generally the result of a less than optimized system...either the gyro programming or the head mechanics. FBL is still in it's infancy but from years of experience in engineering feedback controll loops, I'd bet the winner at the end of the day will include mechanical dampening...and -ve delta. Of course this is just my opinion.
Bob

[Jag72]

Well...I have tried out quite a few different flybarless helis on a few different flybarles systems and versions of the systems...

When Vbar originally came out it flew better with super stiff dampners...at least in my opinion....

I used to run K&B green dampners...or the hardest 3d dampners available for the specific machine I was setting up...and that worked Great for vbar 3.6 and under...

Now that Mikado has reworked the algorithm for version 4.0 it runs better with SOFTER dampners...it's pretty simple to tell when you've crossed the line with dampners on ANY flybarless system though...you will get oscillations after an input ...if you go too stiff you willhave to lower the cyclic gains so low the heli will feel unresponsive yet still oscillate.


so you've defeated the purpose of going stiffer...I have found that vbar 4.0 likes medium to soft dampners to run smoothly...Gyrobots run well on hard/medium or soft just fine

Skookums seem to run better on mediums or softer(but my experience with them is very limited) so I cannot accurately say this applies to ALL skookum equipped machines..just the ones I have tried...


I think it's pretty safe to say though that a "Medium to Soft" set of dampners will run best in most any flybarless system...one thing most people tend to forget is that there is no other dampening in a flybarless system other than the main blades and dampeners...and response and Cyclics are SO MUCH snappier and faster that you DO NOT need the hardest dampners out there...it's just NOT the same as a flybarred heli where there is flex and dampening from the flybar assembly..


that's my opinion at least

[JaggedEdge]

I used one set of stock dampers the whole time I had my 550 sk360'd.
I didn't try out too many types of blades but was happiest with the Maniac 503's.

[Jag72]

I forgot to mention main blades

that is a whole other topic for debate as well...I will just say that inmy opinion it appears that flybarless helis seem to fly better with heavier blades ...and blades that tend to be stiff but not SUPER stiff...there needs to be a small amount of blade flex available...

Vblades do not fly well on flybarless heli because they are too stiff...

[SpeedVision]

Any experience with a rigid head? What gyro does Henseleit use? I was hoping to ditch dampers all together in favor of appropriate blades...

[Jag72]

Still waiting for the Rigids to show up here

BUT...I have worked on plenty of Henseleits in the past and the new rigid uses the same design pretty much on the head...they use O rings for dampners in the head....

If you eliminate the head dampners you will NEVER get the heli flying perfect...at least I don't see how...the dampners provide some flex that is absolutely necessary.

BTW..the rigids are being sold with a Mikado Vbar running 4.0...meaning the O rings dampners they use are going to be in the medium to softer range.

I guarantee you that if you eliminated head dampners you would end up with oscillations that you'd never be able to eliminate....even if you used the softest blades you could find.

it just wouldn't be ideal...at least that's my feeling/opinion

[SpeedVision]

Hmmm, rigid and o-rings don't belong in the same sentence, IMO. I guess it's a translation thing... Rigid = barless... I can live with that.

Given that the Gaui 450 barless heads are truly rigid, I was thinking the rigid concept could be a trend...

[jvthert]

I think that has to do with the size of those heli's. They feel relatively flexible. But I reckon if they made the whole head out of titanium with very stiff carbon blades and no slop the Gaui design would fail.

[BobOD]

Has anyone else noticed what an incredible feeling it is when you get everything dialed in and you hit that sweet spot? I thought FBL was great the first I installed one. It just worked so nice and didn't seem to need a thing. Then, many months later, when I finally got everything tweaked to my current level, it was just like...WOW. I actually find it hard to put into words.

Bob

[Jag72]

I recently converted my Trex 500 over to the Gyrobot ...I used to run a vbar with 4.0

I had to use Really soft dampners on the head and still had to lower the cyclic gains quite a bit with vbar before eliminating the Oscillations...when I installed the Gyrobot 700 I reinstalled the hardest dampners I had and NO MORE oscillations...The head on the trex 500 feels more locked in and crisp than it ever did with vbar.

I am REALLY loving the gyrobot now...The heli feels like it's on rails moreso than ever now

[Al Austria]

Sounds good Anthony, and it was good meeting you at IRCHA!

[Jag72]

Hey AL...it was Great meeting you at IRCHA as well...

If you EVER need anything at all man...just let me know...I'm always happy to help in any way I can..

Take care my friend,
Anthony

[sbaldus]

I am new to flybarless, and this is making me wish I would have re-considered before buying. I bought the V-bar ... maybe I should have bought the Gyrobot ?

I thought the V-bar was IT when it came to FBL.

I guess it will work; maybe I should consider something else for my other conversion.

Originally Posted by Jag72

I recently converted my Trex 500 over to the Gyrobot ...I used to run a vbar with 4.0

I had to use Really soft dampners on the head and still had to lower the cyclic gains quite a bit with vbar before eliminating the Oscillations...when I installed the Gyrobot 700 I reinstalled the hardest dampners I had and NO MORE oscillations...The head on the trex 500 feels more locked in and crisp than it ever did with vbar.

I am REALLY loving the gyrobot now...The heli feels like it's on rails moreso than ever now

[ChrisH]

V-Bar flies GREAT, set it up and enjoy!

[SpeedVision]

Originally Posted by sbaldus

I am new to flybarless, and this is making me wish I would have re-considered before buying. I bought the V-bar ... maybe I should have bought the Gyrobot ?

I thought the V-bar was IT when it came to FBL.

I guess it will work; maybe I should consider something else for my other conversion.

VBar is awesome! Great software, great support, proven hardware and they are a big help when it comes to insuring proper geometry... Go to www.vstabi.com if you want Mikado to help you. I've found their support second to none!

When you get it the way you want it, just go fly and enjoy!!!

[CF_Machete]

or you could just get a gyrobot 700 and not need any product support. it is so easy to setup. I just set up my 450 with one and once I had everything mounted on my heli, it only took me around half an hour to set it up. granted I have to tune the tail and swash and my heli was all ready set up for an sk-360, but I had to reset my tx and set my swash and rudder base on the gyro nd then reset my pitch curve.

[SpeedVision]

Originally Posted by Alpha_&_Omega

or you could just get a gyrobot 700 and not need any product support. it is so easy to setup.

You're telling me that you couldn't have used some factory support in this thread?
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=136458


I had a Gyrobot 700 and sold it because I couln't get it to work right after 2 months. LF was no help.

Flybarless has a lot to do with mechanical setup (especially for a noob) and the electronics setup/tuning. Mikado will help with both. LF was MIA...

While I GB hardware appears to be top notch (plastic case is a little cheezy), the software interface and support is lowsy, IMO.

It was nice to have many of the key players from the Mikado team at IRCHA, where was Lutz and the GB team?

Anyway, after my experience with the GB, I'm thrilled to have V-Bar's on my Trex 600 and Mini Titan and I'm happy to spend my money with a company that gives back to the community!

[sbaldus]

Thanks for the replies !!

I have a conversion for my TREX 700 ... am I on my own in converting the head on my RAPTOR 60 ? I haven't found anyone who offers a conversion for this model.

Originally Posted by SpeedVision

VBar is awesome! Great software, great support, proven hardware and they are a big help when it comes to insuring proper geometry... Go to www.vstabi.com if you want Mikado to help you. I've found their support second to none!

When you get it the way you want it, just go fly and enjoy!!!

[CF_Machete]

Originally Posted by SpeedVision

You're telling me that you couldn't have used some factory support in this thread?
gyrobot 900 on a gaui 200 - HeliFreak


I had a Gyrobot 700 and sold it because I couln't get it to work right after 2 months. LF was no help.

Flybarless has a lot to do with mechanical setup (especially for a noob) and the electronics setup/tuning. Mikado will help with both. LF was MIA...

While I GB hardware appears to be top notch (plastic case is a little cheezy), the software interface and support is lowsy, IMO.

It was nice to have many of the key players from the Mikado team at IRCHA, where was Lutz and the GB team?

Anyway, after my experience with the GB, I'm thrilled to have V-Bar's on my Trex 600 and Mini Titan and I'm happy to spend my money with a company that gives back to the community!

well that was my fault. it was stated in the directions to move you ball links in approximately 2mm on the servo horns. not sure lack of tech support is a good scape goat for not bothering to read the manual.

if you don't like the plastic, the 900 has an aluminum case.

the graphics are a little cheesy, but the functions are there and the menus translate perfectly to the field programmer.

a simple tip for those who have trouble with the gyrobot 700 or 900. FORGET EVERY THING YOU KNOW ABOUT CCPM! after that its easy. oh an reading the manual helps.

And no I am not sponsored or have any affiliation with lf-technik. I have just used a few flybarless systems and the gyrobot set up makes the most sence b/c it aproaches flybarless stabilization from a gyro pont of view and not the mechanical style.

[jvthert]

I am starting to doubt if I'll get a gyrobot or a Vstabi for my next heli... I guess it comes down to how the Vstabi behaves with the new HDX conversion. It flies great but I have a similar 'problem' like Jag72 that the Vstabi likes very soft dampening and High headspeed. It does hold the heli perfectly though in every manoeuvre it just behaves a bit uneasy on the cyclic in a hover.