FBL, NO electronics....

[cbergen]

I'm not sure where to put this as it seems this area is geared more towards the different electronic systems out there.

I've been playing with FBL on our Intrepids, but WITHOUT the Skookum or V-bar, actually NO additional electronics whatsoever.

Here's video from this weekend.

Bergen Intrepid w/G26 FBL (6 min 19 sec)

So far it works on the Gasser AND the Electric Tazer, my 44 Magnum Turbine is next to get "The Treatment"...

[Big Fil]

Looking good Chris

[heli-cuzz]

Looks great, Mr. Bergen.

I've been flying my Kyosho Caliber5 naked FBL helicopter for some time now. I love it and probably never will fly a stab system ever. After flying about 15 gallons through mine, I wouldn't waste the money and time with a stab system.

[halley]

I've often wondered about this, given that people adjust the weights and lengths on their flybars a lot.

So, for the folks out here who have NOT tried this, how does it feel different on the sticks? Less motion required? More anticipation required? Easy to get out of control? Must use expo?

[ErichF]

Yep, I'm just about to start test flying my Caliber 6 without a flybar, or e-stab system. After seeing a big gasser flying without an E-stab system too...I'm starting to wonder if this whole e-Stab business is a bunch of hooie, left over from low-RPM, heavy scalers.

I'm thinking that a lot has changed in the way we operate RC helis these days, that to compare to the old days of flybarless heads (GMP Legend for example) is a mistake.

Back then, most 60s flew around 1650-1700 rpm, with lightweight wooden blades. Heads were sloppy, as were linkages and servos. Servos were also a lot weaker and less accurate. Today, we run around 1900-2100 RPM with super rigid carbon blades, 100+ oz/in digital servos, and tight control systems.

Tomorrow I find out if I'm just FOS.

[F1 Rocket]

Hey Erik,

How about this. I'll send you a GyroBot 700 system to fly on your Caliber. With your contest background you should be able to do an objective comparison between flying with and without a stab system.

Let me know and I’ll send one out tomorrow.

Danny
Esprit Model

[ErichF]

Um, SURE...I can do that.

Sounds like fun!

[SpeedVision]

Originally Posted by F1 Rocket

Hey Erik,

How about this. I'll send you a GyroBot 700 system to fly on your Caliber. With your contest background you should be able to do an objective comparison between flying with and without a stab system.

Let me know and I’ll send one out tomorrow.

Danny
Esprit Model

Great offer, Danny! I would very much like to see his perspective on old school vs. new school.

[Big Fil]

Cool, looking forward to hearing how this goes.

[ErichF]

I also posted this at the end of the Caliber 5 FBL in the main forum, but I know you guys are interested and subscribed to this thread...without further adieu:

Well, that was interesting...

I took the FBL Caliber 6 out today for a couple test hops. The heli was a lot more responsive, as I expected. However, it wasn't so much as to be uncontrollable. I still had 100% rates on with only 18% expo from my flybarred setup. After the second flight, I reduced to 75% rates and 33% expo...but that turned out to be a bit slow on elevator. I think 85% will do fine.

The heli hovered OK, but had some terrible trim errors depending on where the wind hit the airframe and disk. It would go to nose up with the wind on the left, and nose down with it on the right. Stationary piros are a workout, and the wind was only blowing about 5mph. Forward flight was fine. It tracked well with just a slight tendency to nose up which increased as you added collective. Doing scale type moderate forward flight and turns was easy. I could slap a Jet Range or Bell 222 fuse on this thing and be very happy.

Aerobatics were off the hook. The thing would flip like nothing I'd ever seen All cyclic manuevers were crisp and authoritative. Rolls were also very crisp, and I found myself over-rotating a lot in roll control. The only downside to aerobatics was that it could be a bit unpredictable...not bad, but to me, as a precision guy, I could notice some things. I think it's just a lot to do with getting used to it. It does things on a different timing schedule now, and I have to calibrate myself.

At no point did I feel the thing went out of control. It was pretty stable, just active. Power was up, as well. I was pulling 11° with the motor rich and it refused to bog. Continuous rolls (a dozen or so) yeilded no decay in RPM. This with 9° of cyclic pitch.

So, I will continue to fly this setup over the next couple days and see what develops...
__________________

[BobbySmith]

Eric i did this as well with one of my 700's cant wait to see what you think

[F1 Rocket]

Hi Erich,

Your results are in line with what I have experienced as well. In the past, manufacturers fine tuned the delta setup in the head to compensate for some of the quirky trim issues. My old GMP Legend had a lot of delta in it and the grips were setup with trailing edge input as well. Today's FBL heads are setup with everything as neutral as possible so the electronics can do their thing without having to fight extra inputs from the head.


Danny
Esprit Model

[heli-cuzz]

Originally Posted by ErichF

I also posted this at the end of the Caliber 5 FBL in the main forum, but I know you guys are interested and subscribed to this thread...without further adieu:

Well, that was interesting...

I took the FBL Caliber 6 out today for a couple test hops. The heli was a lot more responsive, as I expected. However, it wasn't so much as to be uncontrollable. I still had 100% rates on with only 18% expo from my flybarred setup. After the second flight, I reduced to 75% rates and 33% expo...but that turned out to be a bit slow on elevator. I think 85% will do fine.

The heli hovered OK, but had some terrible trim errors depending on where the wind hit the airframe and disk. It would go to nose up with the wind on the left, and nose down with it on the right. Stationary piros are a workout, and the wind was only blowing about 5mph. Forward flight was fine. It tracked well with just a slight tendency to nose up which increased as you added collective. Doing scale type moderate forward flight and turns was easy. I could slap a Jet Range or Bell 222 fuse on this thing and be very happy.

Aerobatics were off the hook. The thing would flip like nothing I'd ever seen All cyclic manuevers were crisp and authoritative. Rolls were also very crisp, and I found myself over-rotating a lot in roll control. The only downside to aerobatics was that it could be a bit unpredictable...not bad, but to me, as a precision guy, I could notice some things. I think it's just a lot to do with getting used to it. It does things on a different timing schedule now, and I have to calibrate myself.

At no point did I feel the thing went out of control. It was pretty stable, just active. Power was up, as well. I was pulling 11° with the motor rich and it refused to bog. Continuous rolls (a dozen or so) yeilded no decay in RPM. This with 9° of cyclic pitch.

So, I will continue to fly this setup over the next couple days and see what develops...
__________________

That pretty much summed up what I've posted about my stab-free FBL experience.

[egiraldo911]

I want to go FBL on a 700 electric conversion. Do the blades need to be upgraded too? I am not planning on adding a STAB system.

[M.Struck]

Originally Posted by ErichF

The heli hovered OK, but had some terrible trim errors depending on where the wind hit the airframe and disk. It would go to nose up with the wind on the left, and nose down with it on the right. Stationary piros are a workout, and the wind was only blowing about 5mph. Forward flight was fine. It tracked well with just a slight tendency to nose up which increased as you added collective. Doing scale type moderate forward flight and turns was easy. I could slap a Jet Range or Bell 222 fuse on this thing and be very happy.

Would these trim errors, the nose going up or down depending on wind direction and nosing up in FFF, go away with a properly setup FBL system?

Matt

[ErichF]

I'm still tweaking it, but yesterday I flew my Caliber 6 with a GyroBot 700 on loan from Danny at Esprit models for the purposes of a comparison. The wind trim effects are still present, as is the tendency over time for the nose to rise in FFF. They are reduced quite a bit by the GyroBot, but they still exist. Increasing gains on the cyclic may reduce these issues more, however too much gain will result in dangerous oscillations. More to come.

[v22chap]

Very interesting stuff ErichF ,,, interested to find out more

[F1 Rocket]

Originally Posted by ErichF

I'm still tweaking it, but yesterday I flew my Caliber 6 with a GyroBot 700 on loan from Danny at Esprit models for the purposes of a comparison. The wind trim effects are still present, as is the tendency over time for the nose to rise in FFF. They are reduced quite a bit by the GyroBot, but they still exist. Increasing gains on the cyclic may reduce these issues more, however too much gain will result in dangerous oscillations. More to come.

Cool stuff Erich. It sounds like you need to raise the I-gain a bit and reduce the feed back slightly. Keep the P-gain where its at.

Danny
Esprit Model

[jetblue2135]

Originally Posted by egiraldo911

I want to go FBL on a 700 electric conversion. Do the blades need to be upgraded too? I am not planning on adding a STAB system.

egiraldo911-
Im using radix blades with my FBL T500 without a stab unit and LOVE it! Im in the process of converting my 700 over to FBL also will be using radix blades and will not be using stabilization. Ive flown Vbars and had a Skookum 360 but really like FBL without the stab equiptment.

[cbergen]

I have made no changes to the blades as well. Same ones that I used WITH a flybar.

The Gasser has 710 Radix Blades, the Tazer has 690 V-Blades TST's on it. Both seem to fly just fine.