DJI Naza-H GPS Flybarless System

[zeeflyboy]

Because it says not to engage it while inverted for one - that's at least half of the bailouts while learning 3D.

It seems it was never designed as a bailout system, merely a stabilisation system. If you want a proper bailout look elsewhere for now.

[Thunder Fighter]

Originally Posted by rhodesengr

Can you explain this? Why is Naza H not ideal for bailout? I have been looking at this compared to HC and SK and trying to understand the differences.

The NAZA-H won't work at all as a bail out system, they recommend having the heli in a stable hover with the sticks centred before enabling ATTI or GPS mode. I did play a little with this while testing and going to GPS mode while the heli is moving is so violent that the heli almost blade strikes, it is not designed for this at all.

//Dennis.

[AnTi Taco]

This prob a dumb question but ...Can the Naz-H be used on quad copters as well?

[zeeflyboy]

Control scheme is somewhat different... I highly doubt you'd be able to make it work.

I've seen some people use an SK720 in a plane, but that is different to driving 4 motors.

One has to wonder why too given that the Naza-M exists, is specifically designed for multi rotor AND has additional features such as auto land and return to home.

[AnTi Taco]

Originally Posted by zeeflyboy

Control scheme is somewhat different... I highly doubt you'd be able to make it work.

I've seen some people use an SK720 in a plane, but that is different to driving 4 motors.

One has to wonder why too given that the Naza-M exists, is specifically designed for multi rotor AND has additional features such as auto land and return to home.

True....yeah i thought is might of been a just a software difference but since they make the M and the H versions then there must be a hardware issue as well so bad i was hoping it did both cause say someone buys the H version then u could just then slap it on a Quad copter......

[Bodge]

So when its in the self hover mode can somone go into more details about how you fly?


With the sticks centered it will hover still at the same height. Hand off (with the gps one)

Then when you want to fly forward you push forward. Release the stick will it carry on flying forward? Or will it then return to a normal hover?

While its in self hover mode can you change the height of the helicopter with the collective?


To fly forward do you have to add collective like normal? Or do you just push the stick and the system does the rest for you. (so it would increase collective to stop you loosing height on its own)


I can do figs of 8 pretty well on a normal helicopter (including very close to full 3D) Will this make my figures of 8s even more smooth. Keeping them at the same height with less imput from myself.


Im trying to work out how much different the flying part is to what im used to now and how hard it is to adjust to flying in the autopilot mode.

Ill be using this on a 800 size single rotor with gimble and I want it as a safly net and also to make it easyer to get the shots we want and to get it to go where we want with a little less input from myself.

Does this system do what I need it todo lol

[zeeflyboy]

Originally Posted by Bodge

With the sticks centered it will hover still at the same height. Hand off (with the gps one)

Yes, in GPS Atti mode it will hold altitude, position and heading when sticks are released and centred. The exception is collective pitch for which the "centre position" will be captured when you engage the Atti/GPS Atti. This means that when you flip back into manual there should be no surprise climb/descent.

Then when you want to fly forward you push forward. Release the stick will it carry on flying forward? Or will it then return to a normal hover?

In GPS Atti mode or Atti mode if you push forward it will go to a max pitch of 45 degrees and start flying forwards. In GPS mode as it nears its maximum speed limit (I haven't measured but I would guess around 40-50mph) it will then start to pitch back to less nose down in order to maintain the max speed. In Atti mode there is no speed limit and it will just keep accelerating at 45 degrees nose down.

Release the sticks in either Atti or GPS Atti and the heli will return to level. In Atti it will continue sliding along with momentum, in GPS Atti it will actively flare and come to a stop.

[quote]While its in self hover mode can you change the height of the helicopter with the collective?[quote]

Yes, although indirectly. When you switch into either Atti or GPS Atti the Naza locks the throttle signal and takes control of your collective in order to maintain altitude. Your collective stick then becomes a climb/descent rate request up to a maximum of 6m/s... The Naza will alter the pitch as necessary to fulfil that request - it is similar in fact to how a FBL controller controls a roll/pitch axis.

It is worth pointing out two things - since it locks the throttle, throttle hold no longer works in either autopilot mode. In order to stop the motor you have to first switch back to manual. If your radio supports it you can mix the switches in such a way that throttle hold automatically actives manual mode too.

Secondly, again because it locks the throttle, it will bog down under load. I really recommend running your ESC in governor mode as this greatly improved the flight performance for me. In this way, even though the throttle signal is locked the ESC will add power as required.

To fly forward do you have to add collective like normal? Or do you just push the stick and the system does the rest for you. (so it would increase collective to stop you loosing height on its own)

In Atti and GPS Atti the system maintains altitude unless you specifically ask for a climb or descent. It is quite funny and needs a little getting used to, at first I was always climbing because I was subconsciously adding collective when flying forwards.

I can do figs of 8 pretty well on a normal helicopter (including very close to full 3D) Will this make my figures of 8s even more smooth. Keeping them at the same height with less imput from myself.

Certainly, but it is worth pointing out that the GPS Atti and Atti modes are really quite sedate. If you are expecting to sport fly or 3D in anything other than manual I think you may be disappointed.

Im trying to work out how much different the flying part is to what im used to now and how hard it is to adjust to flying in the autopilot mode.

Ill be using this on a 800 size single rotor with gimble and I want it as a safly net and also to make it easyer to get the shots we want and to get it to go where we want with a little less input from myself.

Does this system do what I need it todo lol

This it will do very well. Adjusting is easy since in GPS Atti it is ridiculously easy to fly... You will very quickly get the hang of it. The one catch really is remembering that when you switch into manual it will be so much more responsive and requires traditional flight techniques.

Personally since I don't need a super responsive bird (its in a scale build), I run 40% expo in manual mode, none in Atti/GPS Atti and I dialled down the max roll rates to 140 degrees a second from the standard 180. This makes the transition back into manual much smoother.

Quick summary of how flight modes behave:

Manual - Traditional FBL. No active stabilisation. Aileron, elevator and rudder all command a rate of rotation, collective directly alters collective pitch and throttle is free to change.

Atti - Self stabilising mode, will auto level and maintain altitude. Aileron and elevator are now pitch angle requests up to a maximum of 45 degrees. Rudder remains a rotation rate request but at a lower max rate. Collective is now a climb/descent rate request up to a max of 6m/s and throttle is locked at the level it was when you engaged Atti mode.

GPS Atti - self stabilising and position holding. Will auto level and hold position and altitude. Aileron and elevator are now effectively velocity requests, rudder collective and throttle remains the same as Atti mode.

[NexxuSix]

Originally Posted by Bodge

So when its in the self hover mode can somone go into more details about how you fly?

With the sticks centered it will hover still at the same height. Hand off (with the gps one)

Then when you want to fly forward you push forward. Release the stick will it carry on flying forward? Or will it then return to a normal hover?

While its in self hover mode can you change the height of the helicopter with the collective?

To fly forward do you have to add collective like normal? Or do you just push the stick and the system does the rest for you. (so it would increase collective to stop you loosing height on its own)

I can do figs of 8 pretty well on a normal helicopter (including very close to full 3D) Will this make my figures of 8s even more smooth. Keeping them at the same height with less imput from myself.

Im trying to work out how much different the flying part is to what im used to now and how hard it is to adjust to flying in the autopilot mode.

Ill be using this on a 800 size single rotor with gimble and I want it as a safly net and also to make it easyer to get the shots we want and to get it to go where we want with a little less input from myself.

Does this system do what I need it todo lol

Bodge,
I fly in GPS mode all the time with a Trex 500. I take off and land in Manual mode, and once I get a stable hover, I will switch over to GPS mode.

To answer your questions... Once in GPS mode the Naza-H takes over on the throttle, and keeps the Headspeed constant. If you are in a hover, and leave the sticks alone, you will hover in one spot. Note though... You have to give time for the GPS to settle. I typically wait a few minutes before flying, heli powered on but just sitting, so that the GPS gets a good lock.

If you ease the collective up, you will continue to climb, ease the collective down and the heli will reach a "neutral" point and hover... Continue to ease the collective down and you will descend. I use an altimeter on my heli (DX-8 with telemetery) so I can monitor my ascend / descend.

While in GPS mode if you push forward on the stick, you will move the heli forward. Let go of the stick, and the heli will come to a stop and hover. If you are in Atti- mode and do this, the heli will hover at what altitude it is currently at, but will drift due to the wind and momentum from movement.

As far as moving forward and adding collective to the heli, my experience has been that you may need a small adjustment on the collective a little while moving forward initially, but not much. You can literally fly the heli one-handed if you wanted to (not recommended, but you can).

I too have flown figure 8's in GPS mode. Yes, it is possible to crash, even in GPS mode while doing figure 8's. The main thing is to keep an eye on the collective while flying. The Naza-H IMHO does help make flight smoother, but you can override the abilities of the GPS mode. I have done a few "speed runs" just to see how fast I can do FF, and the experience I have had is that the heli will tilt forward and pick up speed, but it tends to level off a bit. It is hard (though i would say not impossible) to override the leveling capabilities of the GPS mode.

As far as bailout goes... The Naza-H is not intended to be a bailout device. However while flying last weekend I did get disorientated once. I just let go of the stick, but adjusted the heli collective to a stable hover. I added a little adjustment on the tail and slowly turned the heli around until I could see the LED flashing, and then slowly backed the heli up towards me tail first. The Naza-H will take the edge off of flying... So much so that you can almost become complacent with flying skills, so be careful... Have fun with it, but keep in mind you still need to fly safely just as if you did without the Naza-H.

Here is a recent video I did that gives you an idea of how the Naza-H flies:

Walking The Dog - Trex 500e w/ Naza-H (Short Version) (6 min 42 sec)

[Bodge]

Thats brillant. Thanks both of you. I spent about 6 hours yesterday trying to work out what the Nasa H does (apart from hover and not rth for you) lol


I now have a complete understanding of the system

It sounds ideal for what we need.

In the video above. It can go faster than that in FFF?


It looks very good and stable, Im impressed

[NexxuSix]

Originally Posted by Bodge

Thats brillant. Thanks both of you. I spent about 6 hours yesterday trying to work out what the Nasa H does (apart from hover and not rth for you) lol


I now have a complete understanding of the system

It sounds ideal for what we need.

In the video above. It can go faster than that in FFF?


It looks very good and stable, Im impressed

Hi Bodge,
Yes, the heli can go faster than that in GPS mode (which is the mode I fly in during the entire video, except take off and landing). The heli was only going "walking speed" so, I thought that "Walking The Dog" would be a good title. Last weekend, we had a nice break in the weather, and I was able to get a few good speed runs with my heli going left to right and vice versa relative of my position. Though I don't have the Spektrum GPS module onboard (yet?) I estimate my speed to be at least 20-25 mph / 32-40 kmh as it zipped by me. I am still experimenting with the capabilities of the Naza-H, and so far I'm impressed as well! I'm a little hesitant to push full throttle for FFF because I've heard of at least one person on this forum flying FPV getting past a VNE (Velocity Never Exceed) and experiencing "porpoising". I have not seen this with my heli as of yet...

I like you and many other wish the Naza-H had RTH... Even if it was to hover 10m or so to await manual landing... It would be a nice feature. Supposedly, we are due to get semi-automated take off and landing, but I think a lot of us would rather have the RTH feature simply because of safety reasons. A few of us worry about the Naza-H failsafe, which is to hover the heli where it last received a radio signal... which wouldn't be good if it was above people or housing... That so far has been the only major gripe about the system. DJI did address the drifting issue alot of where experiencing and released a patch to remedy that problem.

I guess for now you can't beat the price for the features, but there are other system in the works: Align is supposed to have a APS Lite version with all features the Naza-H has, plus RTH for slightly less than the cost of the Naza-H with GPS. Also, Tarot has leaked a video of a system with bailout capabilities with GPS for about $250... Sadly though, I have not seen any updates to either of these systems for a couple of months now...

Hope this information helps. It will be interesting to see what the competition brings out this year, and what DJI's response will be.

Cheers

[zeeflyboy]

Originally Posted by NexxuSix

Though I don't have the Spektrum GPS module onboard (yet?) I estimate my speed to be at least 20-25 mph / 32-40 kmh as it zipped by me.

Post back when you do... I'm interested in what the top speed limit is. I will be able to check mine when I finally get the thing finished with OSD but for now I've just been flying the bare mechanics for testing. I would guess at full speed in GPS mode it's not more than 40mph or so but it's a perfectly respectable pace.

I'm a little hesitant to push full throttle for FFF because I've heard of at least one person on this forum flying FPV getting past a VNE (Velocity Never Exceed) and experiencing "porpoising". I have not seen this with my heli as of yet...

I'm fairly certain that was not actually VNE but rather a FBL feedback loop, but even so it was also with a very low headspeed with a fairly heavy heli and at high altitude. You will never hit this with full forward stick in GPS mode, I've quite happily flown my 5 blade which runs an even lower HS than FPVflyer does, and weighs a couple of kilos more, at full forward stick all over the place with no control issues.

Speed in Atti mode is unlimited and you can definitely build up a lot of speed in that mode... Potentially enough to cause strange FBL behaviours perhaps. Indeed I believe this was the mode FPVflyer was in when he hit his oscillations, but again I haven't witnessed this in my test heli. To be honest though my biggest concern in this mode is the lack of control authority you have once you've built up that speed - my 7kg beast really slides around the corners at speed in this mode and I wouldn't want to have to change direction or stop in a hurry. That limits my speed in this mode rather than any bad flight behaviours.

In manual mode I have flown at pretty much full pelt (very fast for a heli this heavy and big, if I had to guess 70-80mph) and again no bad behaviour.

My point is, be not afraid young grass hopper!

I like you and many other wish the Naza-H had RTH... Even if it was to hover 10m or so to await manual landing... It would be a nice feature. Supposedly, we are due to get semi-automated take off and landing, but I think a lot of us would rather have the RTH feature simply because of safety reasons. A few of us worry about the Naza-H failsafe, which is to hover the heli where it last received a radio signal... which wouldn't be good if it was above people or housing... That so far has been the only major gripe about the system. DJI did address the drifting issue alot of where experiencing and released a patch to remedy that problem.

Personally I'd rather the semi auto landing and take off for FPV, but why choose... Why not have both lol.

I generally prefer the auto hover - I don't fly over buildings or people but I do fly with hills and trees etc... If I lose signal then it auto hovers, I flick the booster on my Tx and then control is regained and back I come.

Now, that is not to say I do not want RTH... What if I lose video somewhere off in the distance for whatever reason and can't get it back - RTH would be extremely useful in that scenario. I could activate it on a switch separately.

I also fully understand different people have different needs and I don't see any problem with supporting both options. It is not a decision DJI needs to take on our behalves really.

I don't think it can in all good conscience be a safety concern as their own ACE one will RTH behemoths like 800 size camera ships etc. I therefore suspect its more to do with protecting their flagship product - as such I doubt we'll see RTH added.

I'm overall really quite happy with my Naza for the intended purpose... It's not yet quite perfect but it is a great bit of kit.

[Stumblebee]

Originally Posted by AnTi Taco

This prob a dumb question but ...Can the Naz-H be used on quad copters as well?

I thought this would have been answered by now. First, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. Second, for a quad copter, you need a Naza-M/GPS system.

[TACO88]

"Personally I'd rather the semi auto landing and take off for FPV, but why choose... Why not have both lol."

You can have that right now, just connect your ESC/throttle directly to your receiver instead of the Naza and you can take-off and land in ATTI mode, plus you retain control of your throttle. I have been flying my Trex 500 for some time now and have been very happy with the way she flies, just like my quadcopter w/ the Naza M.

[Stumblebee]

Is anyone else doing this? It almost sounds (A) too good, (B) too simple and (C) too cheap to be true. What effect does this have on "manual" and "GPS" modes?

Originally Posted by TACO88

"Personally I'd rather the semi auto landing and take off for FPV, but why choose... Why not have both lol."

You can have that right now, just connect your ESC/throttle directly to your receiver instead of the Naza and you can take-off and land in ATTI mode, plus you retain control of your throttle. I have been flying my Trex 500 for some time now and have been very happy with the way she flies, just like my quadcopter w/ the Naza M.

[TACO88]

Originally Posted by Stumblebee

Is anyone else doing this? It almost sounds (A) too good, (B) too simple and (C) too cheap to be true. What effect does this have on "manual" and "GPS" modes?

Its simple and cheap, hehehe, why don't you give it a try. It still flies fine on manual mode, flies just like a regular heli, have not tried it on GPS mode since I don't have a GPS module. Nice thing about it is you are not at the mercy of the Naza on ATTI mode, you still have throttle control. What I do is land on ATTI mode and throttle down or you can switch to manual and throttle down. You don't have to wait for DJI's update for take-off and landing on ATTI mode. Been flying it that way now for two weeks straight w/o any problems. I even have perfected the ATTI mode so with no wind it just stays on one spot w/ no drifting, Like I said it flies just like my F450 Naza M, stress free flying. Its so easy to remove throttle from the Naza H and connect it to your receiver and viola! Take-off and landing in ATTI mode. Give it a try, you won't know what you have been missing! I learned it from Jhebbel who's from RCGroups, he's been flying it that way.

I'm a ham radio operator so I love tinkering with electronics and making life simpler. I don't go by the books and following it to the letter. If another way is gonna work for me and its simpler I go that route.

[zeeflyboy]

I wouldn't try it in GPS mode... In Atti it's probably fine, but GPS Atti will be asking for trouble.

If the GPS position drifts the heli will try to "maintain" it's position, but on the ground it can't move - it will therefore potentially tip over while trying to adjust its position.

Personally I'd rather DJI just release what was promised, but this is a potential work around in the mean time. For me the throttle is a non issue as I fly in a flat 80% anyway.

[NexxuSix]

Originally Posted by zeeflyboy

Post back when you do... I'm interested in what the top speed limit is. I will be able to check mine when I finally get the thing finished with OSD but for now I've just been flying the bare mechanics for testing. I would guess at full speed in GPS mode it's not more than 40mph or so but it's a perfectly respectable pace.

My point is, be not afraid young grass hopper!

ZeeFlyBoy, I got the Spektrum GPS module installed, and took the heli out for a quick spin. According to the GPS, I'm only topping out at 11.62mph / 18.70kph. I'm not pushing the heli "full stick" quite yet, because I'm testing an extended landing gear. I'm thinking today I will put the 600-sized landing gear back on (I fly a Trex 500e), and give it another run. I think my extended landing gear is somewhat of a hindering factor, because the DJI seems to be very active keeping the heli level, and seems to be compensating more so than it would with Align stock landing gear. For now, here I've attached a picture of the results, and will continue to experiment and post results for the other landing gear. Cheers!

[NexxuSix]

Originally Posted by NexxuSix

ZeeFlyBoy, I got the Spektrum GPS module installed, and took the heli out for a quick spin. According to the GPS, I'm only topping out at 20.03mph / 32.24kph. I'm not pushing the heli "full stick" quite yet, because I'm testing an extended landing gear. I'm thinking today I will put the 600-sized landing gear back on (I fly a Trex 500e), and give it another run. I think my extended landing gear is somewhat of a hindering factor, because the DJI seems to be very active keeping the heli level, and seems to be compensating more so than it would with Align stock landing gear. For now, here I've attached a picture of the results, and will continue to experiment and post results for the other landing gear. Cheers!

Replying to my own thread

Today I reinstalled the Align 600 landing gear back on my Trex 500e, and pushed the sticks a bit today to see what I could get for forward speed. Here are the results: 20.03mph / 32.24kph. So, apparently landing gear size / CG / drag coefficients, etc... can affect the speed capabilities of the Naza-H in GPS mode. Smaller landing gear = faster heli. It seems my extended landing gear made the heli a bit "clumsy" and was working the Naza-H more so than the Align landing gear, making it a slower heli. See attached image... Cheers!

[Stumblebee]

Hmm... I left this for awhile to give folks a chance to chime in. So far, I have not heard a wide amount of support for this method or a lot of distractors. I think I will sit this one out. I'm not ready to risk my heli at this time. I'll wait until DJI eventually comes out with the firmware update.

Originally Posted by TACO88

Its simple and cheap, hehehe, why don't you give it a try. It still flies fine on manual mode, flies just like a regular heli, have not tried it on GPS mode since I don't have a GPS module. Nice thing about it is you are not at the mercy of the Naza on ATTI mode, you still have throttle control. What I do is land on ATTI mode and throttle down or you can switch to manual and throttle down. You don't have to wait for DJI's update for take-off and landing on ATTI mode. Been flying it that way now for two weeks straight w/o any problems. I even have perfected the ATTI mode so with no wind it just stays on one spot w/ no drifting, Like I said it flies just like my F450 Naza M, stress free flying. Its so easy to remove throttle from the Naza H and connect it to your receiver and viola! Take-off and landing in ATTI mode. Give it a try, you won't know what you have been missing! I learned it from Jhebbel who's from RCGroups, he's been flying it that way.

[R_Lefebvre]

Originally Posted by NexxuSix

Replying to my own thread

Today I reinstalled the Align 600 landing gear back on my Trex 500e, and pushed the sticks a bit today to see what I could get for forward speed. Here are the results: 20.03mph / 32.24kph. So, apparently landing gear size / CG / drag coefficients, etc... can affect the speed capabilities of the Naza-H in GPS mode. Smaller landing gear = faster heli. It seems my extended landing gear made the heli a bit "clumsy" and was working the Naza-H more so than the Align landing gear, making it a slower heli. See attached image... Cheers!

Is that the max it will let you do? Or you weren't pushing all the way, and/or leaving it for long enough?

FWIW, VNE on a 450 is somewhere north of 65 mph at least. I haven't found it yet because I haven't had enough room. Some helis will pitch oscillate at speed, it depends on a lot of factors. Not just the FBL controller, but also mechanical setup.

And then larger helis will obviously have an even higher VNE. I've had my 600 over 75mph. The TDR guys talk about going over 120 mph, but I don't know how they do that, it takes a LOT of room. Helis don't accelerate all that fast beyond the initial punch you get by stabbing the collective.