Breakthrough!! Flymentor w/ FBL

[jolyboy]

Flymentor and flybarlees units do totally different jobs.

Flymentor can be used on its own, but you need a flybarred heli.

If you want to use it on a flybarless heli, you need a flybarless unit like ZYX to replace the flybar that was supposed to be there. Without the flybarrless unit, the heli would be pretty unflyable in anything but a hover.

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[.Superfly.]

Thank you for the confirmation, I really appreciate it.
Just for curiosity, is it easy to explain to me why the KDS unit is barely capable of managing some hovering "cushion" while it would be lost when drawn into some manoeuvres?
I thought that the electronics inside was really comparable, a 3 axis gyro system in the mentor, and a 3 axis gyro system in the famous ZYX. Yet why is it that they operate in completely different worlds?
What is it that I am truly missing in the principles of operation of the KDS (with and without ccd camera) and the ZYX?
I hope I am not being a pain, thank you so much for your time!

[bionicbone]

Also to add to JolyBoy's answer.

The Flymentor is programmed to only operate when the cyclic stick is centered, and in that event use the 3-axis gyro to give the correct inputs to level the heli and then hover the heli either normally or inverted.

This is why many have tried using the Flymentor as an FBL unit and think they have succeeded once they get a hover without a flybar. However they soon find when they start to fly forward using the cyclic stick the FM unit does nothing and in fact you are now flying the heli without a flybar and no FBL electronics.

Kev

[.Superfly.]

Excellent, thanks! Now I understand completely what is its principle of operation, and why even if it may have the same electronics, it performs differently...
It was a great call to highlight that the stick, the swash request has to be centered, now all is clear in my mind. I wonder if with some reprogramming, these 3 axis gyro units could work for both needs in one box only. It think it's just a matter of microprocessor computing power.
Food for thought (this is the greatest hobby of them all)!

[jolyboy]

3-axis gyros are merely rotational sensors. Don't assume they do the same job just because they use the same type of sensor. Its like saying a dog and a fish are the same because they both have eyes.

When you let go of the sticks:

Flymentor will output servo signals to bring the heli level.

ZYX will output servo signals to keep the heli at the angle you left it.

If you combine them:
Flymentor will output signals to tell ZYX how to level the heli (elevator or aileron signals). If an outside influence (like wind or physics from fast flight) affects the heli's attitude, ZYX will create servo signals to fight that change in attitude.

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[.Superfly.]

Thanks, that's an interesting explanation! So in principle this could be arranged, having sufficient processing power. You replicate the gyro output towards two computational engines, one of them is dedicated and programmed as a leveller, the other one is dedicated as a stabilizer.
It would then be a matter of having just the right software interface on a pc so to be able to effectively approach the parameters in a non confusing way. Also the ccd camera option would surely be the third variable, in case that you really want to stay placed (instead of relying onto a gps sensor, which would convince me much more...).
Ah well, I am just making hypotheses, surely for the time being I will be happy to fit a ZYX onto my HK550 FBL.

[jolyboy]

Originally Posted by .Superfly.

Thanks, that's an interesting explanation! So in principle this could be arranged, having sufficient processing power. You replicate the gyro output towards two computational engines, one of them is dedicated and programmed as a leveller, the other one is dedicated as a stabilizer.
It would then be a matter of having just the right software interface on a pc so to be able to effectively approach the parameters in a non confusing way. Also the ccd camera option would surely be the third variable, in case that you really want to stay placed (instead of relying onto a gps sensor, which would convince me much more...).
Ah well, I am just making hypotheses, surely for the time being I will be happy to fit a ZYX onto my HK550 FBL.

Yes, its called arduino there are many that already exist like multiwii, ardupilot and openpilot. Its just that the code used to run helicopters is too experimental at the moment.

Its wayyyyyyy less effort to just hook up two controllers like in this thread.

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[kalikraven]

I tried to do this set up and got the Tarot ZYX dialed in so i hooked up the Flymentor. It had lots of problems. There was jitter and the servo throws were off on Pitch and Airleon. Those two channels also would have very limited movement. I could get the swash to pull back for a climb but it would hardley go forward for a dive. The swash would also tilt to the left but not to the right. I tried everything I could think of and eventually pulled the Flymentor off. When trying to set up the ZYX alone again, I was getting lot of servo jitter and the #3 swash servo burnt up and let out the magic smoke... I ordered some replacements and will play with it a little tonight. Any suggestions on the Flymentor or what may have caused the servo jitter and eventual servo fail? Thanks

[bionicbone]

Originally Posted by kalikraven

I tried to do this set up and got the Tarot ZYX dialed in so i hooked up the Flymentor. It had lots of problems. There was jitter and the servo throws were off on Pitch and Airleon. Those two channels also would have very limited movement. I could get the swash to pull back for a climb but it would hardley go forward for a dive. The swash would also tilt to the left but not to the right. I tried everything I could think of and eventually pulled the Flymentor off. When trying to set up the ZYX alone again, I was getting lot of servo jitter and the #3 swash servo burnt up and let out the magic smoke... I ordered some replacements and will play with it a little tonight. Any suggestions on the Flymentor or what may have caused the servo jitter and eventual servo fail? Thanks

Did you connect the FM unit correctly?

[kalikraven]

Ok making a little bit a progress. I copied your idea and a small part of your pic with the swashplate and the Tail servo. It looks like the Tarot is OK. Now I gotta try the FM unit...

[kalikraven]

Ok Got them both happy together for now. Need to do a flight test and adjust where needed. This is how it worked for me.

[salience]

If anyone should buy the FM programming box, double check the Mounting Direction setting against actual swash movement. Mine is reversed! REAR setting actually = Forward. And apparently, when you set FM for 1 servo, the AIL and ELE outputs switch places. I've got my setup working with the addition of a Quark gyro. See posts earlier in the thread.

[kalikraven]

Ail and ele switched places on me. That explains a lot.

[jolyboy]

It took a fair bit of trial and error for me. The best way is to get your ZYX flyable and then connect fm one channel at a time, testing as you go. The only reason you could damage a servo is if you had binding, or you selected the wrong refresh rates in FM or ZYX.

I'd post more details of my setup, but its actually in pieces now for a 480 stretch and 6s. Good luck

[kalikraven]

Ah I'm learning a little bit at a time. I was going to maiden it today but that didn't happen. I had to reverse the throttle channel for the ESC but forgot to reverse the pitch at the same time. All it was doing was hugging the ground. I thought I needed more power so I swapped the 11t pinion with a 13. Then I hooked it up to the ZYX softhware and relized my mistake... By the time I got it ready to go again it was raining out. Maybe tommorow...

[munkymush]

i got my 450 copterx flying today FBL with zyx/fm i agree with joly its much better i have just had a few batteries in my garden doing small controlled circuits, and nose in hovering and manouvreing for as long as i want (without biting through my tongue and clenching my ass cheeks ).just use joly's settings, they got mine flying pretty good straight out of the tin.. thanks for the settings joly it works a treat..

[bionicbone]

Hi all,

Can anyone give me a quick list on which fbl controllers can do stabilisation built in? I.e. the sk720.

My trouble is with that is they are expensive and hand on heart I'm not sure I'd see the full benefit of having such a quality unit giving my slow flying style.

Are there cheaper options out now?

If not, I'm going to do the same as this on my 600esp as it works a treat on the hk600.

Cheers
Kev

[jolyboy]

MSH Brain (I run this currently) ~$200
Align APS ~$900
Helicommand Rigid
Naza-H
Wookong
DJI AceOne
Arducopter (experimental, but almost fully functional) ~$200
Multiwii (highly experimental) ~$80
.....plus many more

The self level on the MSH brain is ALMOST as good as flymentor, but its best used on a momentary switch to bring you back to level as needed. The brain's self level drifts badly if you have any vibration. Flymentor is better because it can be left on and doesnt drift much at all.

If price is an issue, flymentor is by far the best option

[joshd]

i am a little confused on your diagrams . the fly mentor unit has servo inputs and a cable that goes to the rx , i wish you could see what colour wires go where not just aep etc , i will try to decipher the photo but its hard to see as your wiring is so tidy

Josh

[joshd]

Originally Posted by kalikraven

Ok Got them both happy together for now. Need to do a flight test and adjust where needed. This is how it worked for me.

now were getting somewhere , thanks that i can understand.. to work