CGY750 Expert Settings effects

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by Steve Evans

See HERE. Unfortunately this thread was about the heli rather than CGY750 settings, although hopefully my post HERE is a good example to follow.

Steve

Sorry for going off topic i wanted to explain about the AVCS.Damp setting in the Ail/Ele expert menu and its correlation to servo resolution. The more resolution you have the higher AVCS.damp rate you can run without it affecting your control feel. The higher the AVCS.dmp you have set the more stable your heli will feel.

[Steve Evans]

Sorry, I mean't that the thread I referenced was, I believe, intended to be the settings/effects thread Mercuriell proposed, but didn't quite turn out that way! Follow the links and you'll see what I mean!!!!

I'd quoted his post, so I thought the context of mine was clear.

Your post in this thread was a goodun!

Steve

[joe1l]

after doing some reading and some flying this weekend i think i might understand what the rate.cst setting does in the ail/ele expert menu. From what i can tell this looks to be similar to the vbar's paddle simulation setting. If i am correct the lower the value the less paddle like it will act in rolls keeping the rate constant while increasing it will allow the roll to speed up simulating a paddle.

[HeliBenj]

I'd like to know more about this setting as well the way I understand it in the manual is it helps to get same rotation rate between hovering and FF.

I got one flight today to try to get the heli quicker on cyclic. I'm using flight mode 4, 10° cyclic and angbase 110%. The heli is blazing fast on aileron in FFF (very quick rolls), but is a dog in stationary flips and rolls. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to try tinkering with that.

Someone has the same problem and tried this?

[bbremer]

Ang.Rate -- Swash AFR's
The Ang.Rate function sets the maximum deg/s during acceleration and the Swash AFR's determine the continuous cyclic rate. Keep in mind the deg/s readings on the display will include the much faster transitions as well. I recommend ignoring the deg/s readings and going for what you like.

If the feel and transitions (tic tocks) are too fast for you then Ang.Rate should be decreased (or use a lower flight mode which does this for you). If the model doesn't flip fast enough then increase the CGY750->Swash->Cyclic->AFR's. The cyclic pitch change should be between +/-8 to +/-10.5 degrees. The flight modes don't change the overall cyclic rates, it only changes the "feel".

The amount of cyclic pitch needed will vary depending on heli size, head speed, blade size and brand used, that is the main reason for starting at +/-8 degrees. Slowly raise it up by 0.5 degrees per flight until you are satisfied with the overall continuous cyclic rate (for both axis, don't worry about mismatched #'s as the fore/aft cyclic is always going to be higher ). If you get up to +/-10.5 degrees and you still want the model to flip faster then you need to consider trying different blades (thicker airfoil, wider cord) or a higher head speed. More than 10.5 won't really speed up the continuous cyclic rate as it causes too much drag, dirty air, bogging, etc.

Rate CST
When performing stationary rolls or flips (in the calm winds) the overall rate will be slower than when performing fast forward flight rolls or flips, Rate CST is used to try and balance this difference out. Higher values slow the fast forward flight maneuvers rate down.

[HeliBenj]

Thanks, That's very helpul. Yes I find it odd here's such a difference between stationary and FFF rolls speed. I have increase CstRate to 100% and did not see a radical effect, will have to try out some more.

I'm running 10.5 cyclic and flips were still on the edge of slow with Radix 690 and edge 693. As you said changing blades made a huge difference, for me using the rotortech 710 quickened the flips and rolls a LOT as well as way more speed in FFF; as a paradox I lost in autorotation. I think the RT as lighter than shorter Radix or Edge but overall they made the heli ballistic.
I have to up the cstrate some more to try but overall the heli has a great feel at the moment

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by bbremer

Ang.Rate -- Swash AFR's
The Ang.Rate function sets the maximum deg/s during acceleration and the Swash AFR's determine the continuous cyclic rate. Keep in mind the deg/s readings on the display will include the much faster transitions as well. I recommend ignoring the deg/s readings and going for what you like.

If the feel and transitions (tic tocks) are too fast for you then Ang.Rate should be decreased (or use a lower flight mode which does this for you). If the model doesn't flip fast enough then increase the CGY750->Swash->Cyclic->AFR's. The cyclic pitch change should be between +/-8 to +/-10.5 degrees. The flight modes don't change the overall cyclic rates, it only changes the "feel".

The amount of cyclic pitch needed will vary depending on heli size, head speed, blade size and brand used, that is the main reason for starting at +/-8 degrees. Slowly raise it up by 0.5 degrees per flight until you are satisfied with the overall continuous cyclic rate (for both axis, don't worry about mismatched #'s as the fore/aft cyclic is always going to be higher ). If you get up to +/-10.5 degrees and you still want the model to flip faster then you need to consider trying different blades (thicker airfoil, wider cord) or a higher head speed. More than 10.5 won't really speed up the continuous cyclic rate as it causes too much drag, dirty air, bogging, etc.

Rate CST
When performing stationary rolls or flips (in the calm winds) the overall rate will be slower than when performing fast forward flight rolls or flips, Rate CST is used to try and balance this difference out. Higher values slow the fast forward flight maneuvers rate down.

Finally!!! thank you I'm great at testing and getting my heli setup but to be honest these two values were confusing me. I know that increasing Ang.Rate increased how fast the model felt while the AFR effected the overall flip/roll. I think many people have issues with the CGY750 because of the relationship between AFR and Ang.Rate. Because the Ang.Rate is set to 100% by default the feel is usually too fast for many people so they leave the AFR set to around 8 degrees of cyclic which then produces a slower flip/roll then they want. I still think users should start with Rate.Ang set to 50 till they achieve the roll/flip they want via AFR, then increase the Rate.Ang till it matches the speed they want. What do you think?

[benwhite22]

Sounds reasonable to me. I need to get to tweekin' on my Ang.Rate; the more I play with the performance parameters, the more I like my CGY750.

[bbremer]

If you are interested in changing the overall feel I'd recommend leaving ANG.Rate alone and use the various flight modes. The flight modes automatically adjust the start and stop delays along with the ang.rate, rate.cst and a few other parameters. Flight mode 1 is the softest feel and 5 is the quickest.

Save yourself some headaches, Futaba did a very good job setting the flight modes up and it provides a nice progressive difference in feel between 1 and 5.

Once you find the feel you like then use the swash AFR's to set the continuous cyclic rate.

[Chris Lalonde]

Any new tweaks for the expert settings? how about the new settings with the update??

[Steve Evans]

It's hard to know if other little tweaks accompanied the piro compensation. I've not played around at all with the AIL/ELE expert settings as I've been rather impressed. Next time out I think I may go from flight mode 3 to 4 to see how I like a change of setup. I may start tweaking from there.

Recording the impact of changes is a real challenge. I know this from playing around with the governor. That's something I'm sure has been massaged a little in the update; either that or something that impacts it. I found there was a little hunting in Quick mode after the update, so I dropped down to Middle and then found I could wind up the gain on the tail a little.

Steve

[joe1l]

Does anyone know what i need to do to edit my original post on this sticky. I have some updates that i wanted to add to the first page of this thread for expert settings and there effects so that everything is in one place instead of scattered?

Anyhow I've done lots of playing with my CGY750 and i believe i have it set now just right but more important i think i know what to change when finally

[Steve Evans]

You should see an Edit button to the left of the row of buttons at the bottom of your post.

Steve

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by Steve Evans

You should see an Edit button to the left of the row of buttons at the bottom of your post.

Steve

I probably should of mentioned that once the thread became sticky...the edit button disappeared. If someone could let me know a way to edit it again or give me constant edit permissions then i will try to keep the main page up to date.

[Knud Pedersen DENMARK]

Anyhow I've done lots of playing with my CGY750 and i believe i have it set now just right but more important i think i know what to change when finally

Would love to hear about them

[HeliBenj]

+1, maybe in the meantime you could write your findings here and copy them later on if you have a mean to edit your first post?

[joe1l]

good idea i will just add it here and if someone gets the chance please edit the first page with this data.

Control Feeling
Default is 5 range was 1 to 10.
Manual says increasing the value will allow for consistent control feel while lowering would be more dynamic. . Basically this is very similar to the BeastX's v2.0 middle pot they call it Swashplate: direct cyclic feed forward and describe it :

Originally Posted by BeastX V2.0 Manual

Increasing the direct cyclic feed forward will cause more cyclic stick input going directly to aileron and elevator on the swashplate. Decreasing the direct stick feed forward will do the opposite.
If the direct cyclic feed forward is too high, it will over control your cyclic input. Even though you get the impression to have a more direct control, unwanted side effects may appear, like pitch backs on cyclic stops and imprecise fast forward flight.
If the direct cyclic feed forward is too low, the helicopter will feel softer, slower and less direct..

Basically when i increased this value to 10 the control felt quicker yet the cyclic rates were the same, but since it was quicker more direct i had to make alot more corrections. I found actually that a value of 5 seems to work well on my X5's and Fusion 50 but some of the older push pull designed helis and maybe larger helis in general may benifit from increasing this value from 5 to 6, giving them a little more direct control of there cyclic. Basically push-pull swash setups will feel a bit more latent then direct swash setups like the X5, Logo or TDR..this normally leaves the user feeling less connected to their heli compared to direct linkages. You will notice that more helis are being released with direct swash setups because of this. Increasing this will in a way compensate but you may notice that you have to make more corrections. I suggest if you feel any disconnect at all (which is hard to on the CGY) then increment this 1 value at time. I think larger helis using push pull like my Fusion or the original TREX600 will like slightly higher values. Basically if you are coming from a BeastX and normally have your Pot2 turned up, then you will most likely increase this value as well, the same is true for the reverse. I think some people will like it set to 7 while others will like it at 5...but i think its worth trying out.
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Control Delay In and Out
Default was set to 7 for Ail and 10 for Elev for both In and Out.
One thing i noticed when looking at the chart in the back of the CGY750 explaining the differences between flight modes was the big changes in this value. Increasing the number results in a softer feel and decreasing will give more aggressive feel. Closest thing this reminded me of was a cross between stick deadband setting on the vbar and BeastX and expo except that it allows for a much wider range to adjust within. When i decreased my Elev from 10 to 8 for IN/OUT, my elev became more responsive around center stick. The same is true for the Ail. One reason i chose FM 3 over FM 4 was the fact that the stick felt much more sensitive than i liked. This setting would basically allow me to tweak that to my liking. I think this setting will really make a difference for alot of people and is worth experimenting with. I'm confident that other people who are between flight modes would benefit from playing with this. For instance I found that like on my X5 the cyclic roll speed etc of Flight Mode 2 but the stick feeling between FM3. What i did was change my Aile Delay In/out from 12 to 9 and set my elevator in/out 10. Makes a world of difference. I suggest everyone adjust their values at least once to see what they like.
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Very important whenever making a change to your Control Delay In and Out values, be sure that you adjust it for both sides of the stick....A/B , this is true for Ail/Ele/Rud. To do so simply move the stick you are adjusting in 1 direction for when in the Control Delay menu, then the other direction so that you change both A/B parameters else it will be faster/slower in 1 direction
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AVCS damping
This is set to 98% by default. This setting will effect how stable your heli feels during hover and overal. The higher the value the more stable it will be, the better it will stabilize in windy conditions etc. As you raise this value your control feel will degrade though. The higher resolution, the higher the AVCS Dmp value can go without it degrading control. The more resolution the higher the cyclic gains can be run. I think this value is one of the most important values along with the Igain in getting a solid flying heli. At 98% my X5 would fly nicely in calm conditions but the slightest bit of wind would knock my heli around like a feather. Setting it to 99 increased its stability greatly and at 100% increased it to the point that i could let go of the sticks in the wind . The problem is if you dont have optimal resolution it will feel inaccurate on control feel will be compromised.

The key here is to achieve optimal resolution to allow for a higher AVCS.dmp value without it affecting your control feeling or accuracy. To compare The Vbar has a cyclic setup screen which uses a slider of a value of 0 to 100. They have you measure exactly 8 degrees of aileron cyclic...moving the slider up will give you more throw and down less. Optimal resolution on the Vbar is a value between 80 to 100% on the slider with exactly 8 degrees of cyclic. The lower the slider value the less resolution you have. The same is true with CGY750 except optimal resolution is determined by AFR% in your Swash menu. The sweet spot for Ailerion AFR is to achieve 8 degrees of cyclic throw between 50% to 60% AFR, Elevator above 50% normally 60% + If you are getting 8 degrees with AFR % in the 40's then you should adjust your setup so your AFR is at least 50% or greater.
My experience : Increasing resolution made an extreme difference on both of FBL X5's (Vbar & CGY750) when I increased my cyclic resolution using different (shorter) swash balls. Both were identically setup with my Vbar originally being at 75% on slider and 8degrees of Ail throw to 90% & 8degrees compared to CGY750 which was at 47% and went to Ailerion 52% AFR @ 8degrees Elevator AFR also went up from 54 to 60% AFR. The biggest difference was that I was able to increase my AVCS.Dmp from 98% to 100% which increased the stability of my heli without compromising on my control feel/accuracy.
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ANG.Rate.
this setting adjusts the roll speed or flip speed and is set to 100% at default. If you are finding that your rates are too fast then you can slow them down here a bit. I experimented by lowering the value a bit and returning back and could see a immediate differences in my rates.

Originally Posted by bbremer

Ang.Rate -- Swash AFR's
The Ang.Rate function sets the maximum deg/s during acceleration and the Swash AFR's determine the continuous cyclic rate. Keep in mind the deg/s readings on the display will include the much faster transitions as well. I recommend ignoring the deg/s readings and going for what you like.

If the feel and transitions (tic tocks) are too fast for you then Ang.Rate should be decreased (or use a lower flight mode which does this for you). If the model doesn't flip fast enough then increase the CGY750->Swash->Cyclic->AFR's. The cyclic pitch change should be between +/-8 to +/-10.5 degrees. The flight modes don't change the overall cyclic rates, it only changes the "feel".

The amount of cyclic pitch needed will vary depending on heli size, head speed, blade size and brand used, that is the main reason for starting at +/-8 degrees. Slowly raise it up by 0.5 degrees per flight until you are satisfied with the overall continuous cyclic rate (for both axis, don't worry about mismatched #'s as the fore/aft cyclic is always going to be higher ). If you get up to +/-10.5 degrees and you still want the model to flip faster then you need to consider trying different blades (thicker airfoil, wider cord) or a higher head speed. More than 10.5 won't really speed up the continuous cyclic rate as it causes too much drag, dirty air, bogging, etc.

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Rate.CST - Rate Constant
According to Futaba's Davinci code or as we know it the CGY750 manual Rate.constant selects the consitency of the (Ail/Ele) rate between stationary or straight flight differences Lucky for us Brian (bbremer) came along and explained to us finally how to actually use it.

Originally Posted by bbremer

When performing stationary rolls or flips (in the calm winds) the overall rate will be slower than when performing fast forward flight rolls or flips, Rate CST is used to try and balance this difference out. Higher values slow the fast forward flight maneuvers rate down.

My experience with Rate.Constant comes mainly from my X5 and i believe most people flying helis smaller than a 600 size will most likely want to adjust this value as it is what really differentiates the CGY750 feel from most other fbl systems like the vbar or Beastx. It was explained to me that the cgy750 does not clamp to a set rate like many other systems on the market, instead the CGY750 gives us that linear responsive feel that many of us like and attribute to a more flybar like feel If your roll rate in fast forward flight is too aggressive compared to its stationary rate, then you will want to increase the rate.cst value. Each heli is different and the difference between stationary and FFF are usually mild on larger sized helis like my Fusion 50 but in contrast, my X5 had huge differences between stationary and FFF, this seems to be the case with many smaller models < 550mm blades. My cyclic rates in fast forward flight on the X5 felt to be 3x what they were in stationary flight. I increased my rate.cst from a value of 40 to 85% which slowed down my fast forward flight cyclic to the point that it feels perfect now. I also raised the rate.cst value on Fusion 50 to get a more consistent feel but only needed to go to 60%. If you feel that your stationary rate is too slow but your fast forward flight is too fast, then you will need to increase your AFR% untill your stationary rate is adequate then slowly increase your Rate.Cst till it feels right. Before learning how to adjust Rate.cst, i found that whenever my FFF cyclic was too aggressive that without changing the rate.cst value and instead increasing my AFR cyclic rate from 8degrees to 9+degrees actually resulted in a less aggressive feeling Fast Forward flight cyclic. This is why it is important that you set your stationary cyclic rate / AFR first then adjusting FFF cyclic. I have noticed that many people have been flying with only 8 degrees of cyclic usually due aggressive feel of the cyclic in forward flight, i suggest raising your cyclic until you are satisfied with the cyclic in slow / stationary flight then adjusting Rate.Cst if fast forward flight is too aggressive.
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Igain

Originally Posted by Futaba CGY750 v1.10 Manual

This adjusts the I gain (Integration gain) of the PID operation. Increasing the I gain results in more holding power, but the control feeling will be slower. When you get the wagging by increasing the I gain, reduce the gyro gain for the wagging to stop. The I gain to 0% is equal to the Normal mode. Select the values as your preferred flight style.

The Igain works much like the AVCS.dmp in that it increases the holding power and stability your heli. Before doing the firmware update i ran AVCS.dmp at 101% with TX gains for Ail 65%+ and Elevator 97%+ but after the firmware update added the igain I was able to reduce AVCS.dmp to 100% giving me same if not more stability and holding but with more control feeling. I also lowered my Ail Tx gain down to 52% and my Elev to 90% but increased the Igain values from 40% to 60% on both Ail/Elev giving me a more locked in feeling during flight. This value should be adjusted to your liking, some will prefer less and while others prefer more. The Igain will affects control similar to the Style slider on the vbar. The style slider on the vbar allows the user the change control from vivid to robotic/precise. The higher the igain the more holding power it will have making it more precisely locked into the stick, while lower will be more like the vbar's vivid control feel which allows for more overshoot on the cyclic. I like a very locked in precise feeling heli so i prefer the value higher while others will like it lower.

[AcidDrink]

Thanks a lot for that, extremely valuable info!

[Knud Pedersen DENMARK]

Joe1I;
Thanks for your infos

[ssmith512]

joe1l,

Please send me your mailing address, as I owe you a gift card to your favorite fancy restaurant for taking the immenase amount of time to not only write all of this up, but doing the testing to get this info for us. MAJOR thanks friend!

Steve