Help me understand Hard Deck level flight

[jemeyers]

I apologize in advance for this long post. If you don't want to read it all just look for the three questions down below. That's the gist of what I'm hoping to learn.

I have had CPII installed on my humble Blade 400 for a while and I think CPII is some of the best money I've spent in this hobby. With all the money I've saved on replacement parts. I took the plunge and installed the Hard Deck (HD) a week ago.

There are times when I know I am only going to be doing casual "low" flying around the yard so I set my Flight Mode to Level Flight (NOT Level in H. Deck). Essentially, I'm trying to go back to flying with my CPII behaving like it did before I added the Hard Deck. I'm wondering if that is actually possible.

So here's what I'm hoping to get straight:

1. Does adding Hard Deck affect the Level Flight mode (NOT the Level in H.Deck mode) so that it is different from the "non-hard-decked" CPII Level Flight mode such as what I had before the HD upgrade.

2. Does Hard Deck affect anything if it never gets high enough to arm? The docs say the CPII goes into "super stabilization" mode when dropping out of the hard deck altitude. Is that that only time super stabilization mode is on?

3. What is the preferred way to prevent Hard Deck from affecting a flight? I'm sure if I went into Quick Setup and answered that I have no ACC device and no Static Streamer that would do it. But would I also have to not setup collective management as well? Perhaps that question would not come up after answering no to an ACC device being installed. Anyway, this is not a very elegant way to shut it off so I'm just looking for advice on a better way.

Now, having asked all this (thanks for reading this far!) I don't want to give the impression that I don't use Hard Deck. It's amazing! I just want to know whether it is thwarting any effort to turn it off. Sometimes I want it and sometimes I want it not.

Here's an example of two of the issues I've experienced that prompts me to start this topic. Today, while simply hovering at about ten feet and my Flight Mode set to Level Flight my heli shot up about 5 feet and drifted back down to where. I'm wondering if collective management crept in and did "something" as there was practically no wind today. This happened about 3 times in 5-pack session.

Also, after adding the HD, I've had a situation where even setting Flight Angles to max had no effect on pitch or roll. This is very peculiar and I never had this when running CPII without the HD. I tried reloading the firmware, double-checked my swash. No change at all! I flew with CPII off and the heli was normal and trimmed. Turn the CPII on and the heli tries to run away from me even with 10 degrees positive pitch to try to bring it back. (Even tried 10 degrees negative pitch and there was no change. The wind conditions were about 3 MPH which is very moderate and actually should have blown the heli in the opposite direction anyway.

It would be nice to KNOW that HD was truly off when troubleshooting a weird problem like this to help in localizing the problem. (Frustrated, I took the time while cogitating on this problem to go ahead and take some down time and upgrade to the digital servos I've had sitting waiting for me to get to them. Of course lots of setup ensued and yet another session with Quick Start and the problem was gone. No reason to it. All that changed that CPII should have cared about was slightly different travel limits from what I had previously.

Well, I'm sorry to babble on. My point is just the 3 questions I asked. Perhaps the answers would also be enlightening to others.

Thanks, friends.

P.S. Yes, I do have a Vertical Sensor and my Go LED has always been green for flight. I have a powerful external BEC and an excellent Castle Ice ESC. Data logs show clean power all the way. We've had some very nice warm weather here. I have diligently scoured the documentation and the FAQs and squinted at many of the posts in this Support Forum until my eyes can no longer focus and still I can't find the actual answers to my questions.

[Tim Marks]

Hi:

Good questions. I have put my answers within your text below in red.

Originally Posted by jemeyers

I apologize in advance for this long post. If you don't want to read it all just look for the three questions down below. That's the gist of what I'm hoping to learn.

I have had CPII installed on my humble Blade 400 for a while and I think CPII is some of the best money I've spent in this hobby. With all the money I've saved on replacement parts. I took the plunge and installed the Hard Deck (HD) a week ago.

There are times when I know I am only going to be doing casual "low" flying around the yard so I set my Flight Mode to Level Flight (NOT Level in H. Deck). Essentially, I'm trying to go back to flying with my CPII behaving like it did before I added the Hard Deck. I'm wondering if that is actually possible.

So here's what I'm hoping to get straight:

1. Does adding Hard Deck affect the Level Flight mode (NOT the Level in H.Deck mode) so that it is different from the "non-hard-decked" CPII Level Flight mode such as what I had before the HD upgrade. If you have completed all aspects of setup properly (installed the HD Module, informed the computer module that the HD module is installed, answered "yes" to the question about installing the static streamer, performed the collective pitch setup without errors, and enabled Emergency Recovery), then during normal Level Flight Mode stabilization, when you turn CPII ON using the remote, you will get the new collective management operation. This means that stabilization is improved such that collective is added during recovery. Recoveries will be even faster and assure that the heli is level and up-right before returning control. But if you do not complete all the above steps, you would get the older ER without collective management when you enable the Level Flight Mode. Still, in order to utilize the new collective management feature, you must fly above 30 feet one time to arm the Hard Deck Module. If you don't do this, you should get the old ER method of recovery.

2. Does Hard Deck affect anything if it never gets high enough to arm? The docs say the CPII goes into "super stabilization" mode when dropping out of the hard deck altitude. Is that that only time super stabilization mode is on? yes, this is my understanding. You have to arm the Hard Deck Module by flying above 30 feet first before the new collective management ER will be "turned on". Not arming HD Module should be the same thing as completely turning it off, so you should not see the super-stabilization mode below the deck either.

3. What is the preferred way to prevent Hard Deck from affecting a flight? I'm sure if I went into Quick Setup and answered that I have no ACC device and no Static Streamer that would do it. But would I also have to not setup collective management as well? Perhaps that question would not come up after answering no to an ACC device being installed. Anyway, this is not a very elegant way to shut it off so I'm just looking for advice on a better way. I have already listed all the things that must be done in order to activate collective management ER above. Skipping any one of those steps is likely to trigger some kind of error in the Preflight screens. For example, if you do not enable Emergency Recovery, this will trigger an error code and Hard Deck Module will be disabled, regardless of whether or not it is installed and you have informed the computer module that it is installed. I think the simplest method to completely disable the Hard Deck Module would be to simply unplug it from the computer module. In keepinf with my example above, if you do this, you may see errors if you check the Preflight screen. But if I'm not mistaken, you could probably safely disregard those errors because your objective is to disable HD Module any way. Otherwise, if you don't want to see the errors, you would have to redo quick setup and answer no to the question of whether the Hard Deck Module is installed.

Now, having asked all this (thanks for reading this far!) I don't want to give the impression that I don't use Hard Deck. It's amazing! I just want to know whether it is thwarting any effort to turn it off. Sometimes I want it and sometimes I want it not. I understand what you're saying, and I think I've given you an easy way to disable it completely. However I would also add that collective management ER is an improved ER and I'm not really sure why you would wish to intentionally disable it for any reason? If you just stay below 30 feet, it won't arm the new method of ER anyway.

Here's an example of two of the issues I've experienced that prompts me to start this topic. Today, while simply hovering at about ten feet and my Flight Mode set to Level Flight my heli shot up about 5 feet and drifted back down to where. I'm wondering if collective management crept in and did "something" as there was practically no wind today. This happened about 3 times in 5-pack session. I would not expect this behavior. I'm going to run this by the design engineer and see what he thinks.

Also, after adding the HD, I've had a situation where even setting Flight Angles to max had no effect on pitch or roll. This is very peculiar and I never had this when running CPII without the HD. I tried reloading the firmware, double-checked my swash. No change at all! I flew with CPII off and the heli was normal and trimmed. Turn the CPII on and the heli tries to run away from me even with 10 degrees positive pitch to try to bring it back. (Even tried 10 degrees negative pitch and there was no change. The wind conditions were about 3 MPH which is very moderate and actually should have blown the heli in the opposite direction anyway. I can only guess at this, but I would recommend re-doing quick setup and paying particular attention to the collective setup portion and use a pitch gauge. I'll also run this by the design engineer.

It would be nice to KNOW that HD was truly off when troubleshooting a weird problem like this to help in localizing the problem. (Frustrated, I took the time while cogitating on this problem to go ahead and take some down time and upgrade to the digital servos I've had sitting waiting for me to get to them. Of course lots of setup ensued and yet another session with Quick Start and the problem was gone. No reason to it. All that changed that CPII should have cared about was slightly different travel limits from what I had previously.

Well, I'm sorry to babble on. My point is just the 3 questions I asked. Perhaps the answers would also be enlightening to others.

Thanks, friends.

P.S. Yes, I do have a Vertical Sensor and my Go LED has always been green for flight. I have a powerful external BEC and an excellent Castle Ice ESC. Data logs show clean power all the way. We've had some very nice warm weather here. I have diligently scoured the documentation and the FAQs and squinted at many of the posts in this Support Forum until my eyes can no longer focus and still I can't find the actual answers to my questions.

As I said, you have some good questions. Thanks for the feedback! I hope I've given you some decent answers and things to try. I'll also email some of the beta team and suggest they might provide you with additional insight.

[jemeyers]

Tim, thanks for taking the time to thoroughly answer my questions. I feel a lot more confident now knowing how things are supposed to work.

I flew a bit today. It was breezy but I detected no problems. While I have no idea what the problem was with the non-responsive flight angles setup, all remained fine today.

As for the bumps up in collective, I'm puzzled. I doubt if I ever had enough altitude to arm the system. Is it possible some weird thing is happening with the pressure sensor and it is thinking it is suddenly at 30' and starting to climb to HD altitude?

I am an "old hand" at Quick Setup. Done it several times in trying to figure out the flight angle problem. Even tried it with the PC interface instead of the IR device. In my setup I like 0 pitch at 50% and go to 10 degrees at 100%. I use a digital pitch gauge. Anyway, with CPII off I can easily hover hands off for several seconds until natural external influences slowly drift it away.

While on the subject of Quick Setup, if I may sidetrack for a moment, I would like to make a suggestion for the documentation. There is no explanation of how to set up the transmitter. I spent many hours trying to figure out why I was always getting a "bad CCPM" error when I first got into copilot a few weeks ago. It wasn't until I set my cyclic dual rates to 100% and no expo AND set my cyclic travel limits to 100% each way for the system to be happy. Most frustrating is that you can do the routine of pulling the stick back and the next step of going left and it says "saved" but does not complain that it is NOT seeing the degree of movement it expects to see. No, it lets you motor along only to complain about "bad CCPM setup" error at the end of the road. In other words, it lets you screw up all along and then dings you with an arcane error message for all the effort. It would be helpful to add a warning that the transmitter setup should be such-and-such or there will be trouble completing setup properly.

OK, that sidestep is over thanks again for your answers.

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by jemeyers

I apologize in advance for this long post. If you don't want to read it all just look for the three questions down below. That's the gist of what I'm hoping to learn.

I have had CPII installed on my humble Blade 400 for a while and I think CPII is some of the best money I've spent in this hobby. With all the money I've saved on replacement parts. I took the plunge and installed the Hard Deck (HD) a week ago.

There are times when I know I am only going to be doing casual "low" flying around the yard so I set my Flight Mode to Level Flight (NOT Level in H. Deck). Essentially, I'm trying to go back to flying with my CPII behaving like it did before I added the Hard Deck. I'm wondering if that is actually possible.

So here's what I'm hoping to get straight:

1. Does adding Hard Deck affect the Level Flight mode (NOT the Level in H.Deck mode) so that it is different from the "non-hard-decked" CPII Level Flight mode such as what I had before the HD upgrade.

2. Does Hard Deck affect anything if it never gets high enough to arm? The docs say the CPII goes into "super stabilization" mode when dropping out of the hard deck altitude. Is that that only time super stabilization mode is on?

3. What is the preferred way to prevent Hard Deck from affecting a flight? I'm sure if I went into Quick Setup and answered that I have no ACC device and no Static Streamer that would do it. But would I also have to not setup collective management as well? Perhaps that question would not come up after answering no to an ACC device being installed. Anyway, this is not a very elegant way to shut it off so I'm just looking for advice on a better way.

Now, having asked all this (thanks for reading this far!) I don't want to give the impression that I don't use Hard Deck. It's amazing! I just want to know whether it is thwarting any effort to turn it off. Sometimes I want it and sometimes I want it not.

Here's an example of two of the issues I've experienced that prompts me to start this topic. Today, while simply hovering at about ten feet and my Flight Mode set to Level Flight my heli shot up about 5 feet and drifted back down to where. I'm wondering if collective management crept in and did "something" as there was practically no wind today. This happened about 3 times in 5-pack session.

Also, after adding the HD, I've had a situation where even setting Flight Angles to max had no effect on pitch or roll. This is very peculiar and I never had this when running CPII without the HD. I tried reloading the firmware, double-checked my swash. No change at all! I flew with CPII off and the heli was normal and trimmed. Turn the CPII on and the heli tries to run away from me even with 10 degrees positive pitch to try to bring it back. (Even tried 10 degrees negative pitch and there was no change. The wind conditions were about 3 MPH which is very moderate and actually should have blown the heli in the opposite direction anyway.

It would be nice to KNOW that HD was truly off when troubleshooting a weird problem like this to help in localizing the problem. (Frustrated, I took the time while cogitating on this problem to go ahead and take some down time and upgrade to the digital servos I've had sitting waiting for me to get to them. Of course lots of setup ensued and yet another session with Quick Start and the problem was gone. No reason to it. All that changed that CPII should have cared about was slightly different travel limits from what I had previously.

Well, I'm sorry to babble on. My point is just the 3 questions I asked. Perhaps the answers would also be enlightening to others.

Thanks, friends.

P.S. Yes, I do have a Vertical Sensor and my Go LED has always been green for flight. I have a powerful external BEC and an excellent Castle Ice ESC. Data logs show clean power all the way. We've had some very nice warm weather here. I have diligently scoured the documentation and the FAQs and squinted at many of the posts in this Support Forum until my eyes can no longer focus and still I can't find the actual answers to my questions.

Hi jemeyers,

In all the comments following consider that the HD module is installed and all questions in Quick Setup have been answered accordingly including the collective pitch degrees setup questions.

"Essentially, I'm trying to go back to flying with my CPII behaving like it did before I added the Hard Deck. I'm wondering if that is actually possible."

Answer: Yes it is possible. Level in Flight mode should fly the same as before the HD module was added with only slight variation to ERs as sited later in the post.


1. Does adding Hard Deck affect the Level Flight mode (NOT the Level in H.Deck mode) so that it is different from the "non-hard-decked" CPII Level Flight mode such as what I had before the HD upgrade.

Answer: Short answer is No. As far as far as flying around upright, having the mode set to Level Flight will give the same CPII handling as before the HD module was installed. There is no collective management in this mode when flying around level, no super stable mode as in Level in H Deck mode. However, if you were to set the remote switch to Off then put the helicopter into a 30 degree plus attitude and turn Level in Flight mode On then CPII would enter an ER mode that incorporates collective management. Basically a bail out switch that will level and employ collective pitch management unlike CPII without the HD module installed. Given the 30' arming altitude has been reached at least once. If arming has not occurred then collective management during and ER is not available but only after the 30' has been reached. Once armed, CPII will stay armed for the remainder of the flight regardless of the altitude of the helicopter.

2. Does Hard Deck affect anything if it never gets high enough to arm? The docs say the CPII goes into "super stabilization" mode when dropping out of the hard deck altitude. Is that that only time super stabilization mode is on?

Answer: Yes in that the helicopter will be employing a super stable mode that prevents the helicopter from being rolled inverted or even tilted to an unwanted steep angle by the pilot. Basically this help to prevent the pilot from, what some would refer to as "fighting the helicopter to the ground". No to the second question if the remote is set to Level in HDeck then the super stable mode in On. In short, the super stable mode is On full time even if the helicopter has not ascended to the 30' arming level.

3. What is the preferred way to prevent Hard Deck from affecting a flight? I'm sure if I went into Quick Setup and answered that I have no ACC device and no Static Streamer that would do it. But would I also have to not setup collective management as well? Perhaps that question would not come up after answering no to an ACC device being installed. Anyway, this is not a very elegant way to shut it off so I'm just looking for advice on a better way.

Answer: The preferred way is to select Level in Flight as the mode. Other than adding the ability to use this mode as an emergency bail out switch to initiated an ER, CPII will fly the same as before the HD module was added.

"Here's an example of two of the issues I've experienced that prompts me to start this topic. Today, while simply hovering at about ten feet and my Flight Mode set to Level Flight my heli shot up about 5 feet and drifted back down to where. I'm wondering if collective management crept in and did "something" as there was practically no wind today. This happened about 3 times in 5-pack session."

Response: I know of no reason why the helicopter would shot up 5', unless, the remote was in the Off position and the helicopter was in an orientation of more than 30 degree off level and the remote was then switched ON. At that time the ER would kick in and momentary collective pitch management would kick in. In that case the helicopter would shot up until the helicopter leveled out. Now let me restate, if the remote remains in the On position in Level Flight mode then the helicopter should not receive any collective pitch input from CPII.

"Also, after adding the HD, I've had a situation where even setting Flight Angles to max had no effect on pitch or roll. This is very peculiar and I never had this when running CPII without the HD. I tried reloading the firmware, double-checked my swash. No change at all! I flew with CPII off and the heli was normal and trimmed. Turn the CPII on and the heli tries to run away from me even with 10 degrees positive pitch to try to bring it back. (Even tried 10 degrees negative pitch and there was no change. The wind conditions were about 3 MPH which is very moderate and actually should have blown the heli in the opposite direction anyway."

Response: Why the Flight Angles did not change or effect the leveling of the helicopter, I don't know, as far as I know, they should have. I will say that CPII has a tenancy to drift some what away from the sun, which most likely was to you back but that has always been the case. Nothing new here.

Hope this helps,
Jack

[jemeyers]

Thanks, Jack. I truly appreciate you and Tim taking so much time to answer my questions. I feel much better informed now about how HD affects what I'm doing so I can be in better control of my craft and know what is going on. It's safer and more fun that way.

I'm going to chalk up the collective going up as some kind of operator error problem. Perhaps, because of my previous confusion about what HD was doing to me, I simply interpreted what I was seeing as a problem. Since it has not occurred today at all, I'm ready to sign off on this discrepancy. If it happens again, I let out a holler.

I'm not going to be so easy on the flight angles problem. It was real and I spent about half a day trying to figure it out. My main sensor is physically as level as I can get it. It's mounted on the horizontal fin on the boom. My boom is perpendicular to main shaft. I would have the sensor dead-on level with the boom but since it has a little bulge under the label I can't get my digital gauge to sit flush on it. Anyway, I'd bet it's as level as anybody else's and probably more level than most. After my flying sessions today my flight angles ended up with 6 degrees pos pitch and about 1.5 right roll. Heli hovered very stable with CPII on. Seems to be working within reason now.

When this problem was happening, the heli was not drifting. I had to keep back tension on the cyclic to rein in this horse because it wanted to gallop. The light wind was such that the heli should have been blowing back to me instead it was fighting to go forward away from me. I even tried clicking in trim a few clicks to see if I could stop having to keep the stick pulled back. I did a few clicks, no change! I trimmed it back the full range of my trim and still it want to run away. Setting the flight angles full max in pitch either way had no effect. I switched off CPII and my heli flew just fine (once I dumped all that back trim on my TX).

I see that there is another forum member complaining about this same problem. "Suspected flight angles problem ..." I believe is the topic title. I think there is some flaky voodoo happening in the software. Today, the problem was gone.

Thanks for the help and suggestions. I like CPII and Hard Deck. There is a lot to know about the system and I feel all the guidance from you and Tim has helped me greatly.

[nightflyr]

Might suggest you try relocating your main sensor ...

To begin with, if you have it mounted on the horizontal stabilizer you put it right in the "strike zone" for a boom strike.
Might try it a couple of inches closer to the frame.

[jemeyers]

I think I'll try that as an experiment.

On a Blade 400 there's only 7 inches of boom between the horizontal fin and the chassis frame. I now have the sensor on the fin which puts its center 8 inches from the frame. Even at this location the frame and frame components obstruct about 20 degrees of sensor view. Not the best, but I could put the sensor all the way back on the boom and still impinge on the 120-degree cone on this little heli.

But I'll give it a shot and walk on the wild side a bit and put it about 4 inches back from the frame. With luck, I can drop the servo extension cable I'm using and save a couple of grams.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[jemeyers]

Well, changed my mind. After seeing the sensor moved that far forward it just seems way too close and "out of spec" with the intent of the instructions. So I'm keeping it on the fin. It's very secure there and level. Drilled four holes in the fin to get two cables ties thru and I'm using double-stick tape. It's the old suspenders and belt approach.

[jperkosk]

The original position of main sensor on my B400:



And after relocation, the picture is taken right after landing tipover incident that ended with a minor boom strike. The relocated sensor survived the incident just fine:

[jemeyers]

Thanks for the photos. I see where you relocated the sensor. Mine is right on top of the fin.

Checking prices, I see the main sensor is currently more expensive than the avionics computer so it would be painful to have to buy a new one.

The prudent thing would be for me to learn from your experience and from Night's advice and move the thing forward. Thanks again!

[nightflyr]

Hey Jerry....
Custom blades????

Originally Posted by jperkosk

The original position of main sensor on my B400:



And after relocation, the picture is taken right after landing tipover incident that ended with a minor boom strike. The relocated sensor survived the incident just fine:

[CZorzella]

How the Hard Deck does its calculations to define the 30 feet level. Does it takes as reference the take off level or the the ground level where I'm flying at a certain moment?

For instance, if we observe the attached diagram which actually represents my flying field, how the HD will behave if we consider the take off point to be A and fly to points B1 and B2? Will I crash on top of the trees? I'm afraid that in this scenario, the HD level will be shifted to 30 feet above ground where I'm flying and then I might hit the top of trees on the left.

On the other way around, what will happen if I take off the helicopter from point A and fly it to point C; Will I crash against the mountain side?

[n6nev]

The reference is taken from take off position.. as it uses a baro sensor, it measures the difference in pressure, so the 30ft level will be determened from the point of lift off...not the slope of the hill........

[sutty]

It is not possible to set the hard deck to 30 feet. The minimum value is 50 feet. However, if we assume your drawing showed the 50 feet minimum, then the blue line would be where the hard deck module would trigger a recovery. When you power up your module it initialises and zeros the altimeter, so your takeoff point is the referential 0. The blue line would be where the hard deck would be regardless of what was underneath it. So, at point B1 your recovery would be triggered with an extra margin of safety, and at point C you would indeed have hit the ground just as the recovery was about to be initiated.

I have a similar situation in that at the far side of my field I have some trees that are 20 feet tall. If I get into difficulty over those trees, and the recovery is initiated at the 50 feet minimum, but it then takes 30 feet to recover, I could be in the top of those trees before it were completed. Of course, in my case, I could simply set the hard deck value to 70 feet to buy back that extra 20 feet, but I already have concerns that 50 feet is too high for me.

You too could set it to give you clearance over the highest part of your flying field, unless that upward slope continues onwards for some considerable height. I think the maximum setting is somewhere around 400 feet. Of course doing this would constrain you to flying above this altitude, even when you were above your take off point, otherwise a recvovery will be triggered.

Cheers

Sutty

[CZorzella]

N6nev & Sutty, Thank you for your clarifications.

50 feet above the take off point, even when I'm flying over the trees at point B1 is perfect; Concerning the point C, I'll simply avoid flying there.

My CPII+HD combo is already on its way. Now I have to wait for the Brazil Customs clearance and then delivered home, probably within the next couple of months or so.

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by CZorzella

How the Hard Deck does its calculations to define the 30 feet level. Does it takes as reference the take off level or the the ground level where I'm flying at a certain moment?

For instance, if we observe the attached diagram which actually represents my flying field, how the HD will behave if we consider the take off point to be A and fly to points B1 and B2? Will I crash on top of the trees? I'm afraid that in this scenario, the HD level will be shifted to 30 feet above ground where I'm flying and then I might hit the top of trees on the left.

On the other way around, what will happen if I take off the helicopter from point A and fly it to point C; Will I crash against the mountain side?

Hi CZorzella,
What a nice drawing! What program did you use to make it?
Jack

[CZorzella]

Originally Posted by jdd1

Hi CZorzella,
What a nice drawing! What program did you use to make it?
Jack

Thanks. There is nothing special; I used the Microsoft Paint!
The images of helicopter and trees, I've downloaded from internet