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450 PRO Class Electric Helicopters 450 PRO Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar. |
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03-11-2015, 09:32 AM | #1 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2011
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Setup tail in rate mode now can't reduce GPRO throw on tail enough
I recently came across some posts on setting up the tail first in rate mode... getting it to hover in rate mode without the heli slowly turning either direction. I accomplished this process, however, I can not turn down the throw far enough on one direction of the rudder to stop the binding of the tail pitch slider against the tail case.
Is this an indication I have not done something correctly? I can only turn down the throw to "40" in the gpro software. Can I dial back the endpoints in the TX at this point or will that cause other issues? Thanks for any help you all can provide! |
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03-11-2015, 10:42 AM | #2 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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You need to put the Gpro trim back at center in the software.... Find the servo center by just powering it up, mount the servo horn at 90 and then mount the tail slider in the correction position.
The correct position is with the tail slider a little left of center. The diagram is in the manual. You fold up the tail blades and measure a 4mm plane between the two tail blades. They are slightly pitched. Then you adjust the servo center via the software and you'll have the correct limit adjustment. |
03-11-2015, 10:45 AM | #3 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2011
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That makes sense... however would then induce a slight pirouette when in rate mode?
I guess it doesn't really matter since I never fly in rate mode anyway. Just read that was the "proper" way to setup the tail. I'll probably go through the setup again and revert back since I don't like the binding issue. |
03-11-2015, 10:51 AM | #4 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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No it won't piro the tail. That is the neutral point of the slider believe it or not. Its kinda complex to explain without visual aids.. but the main blade torque is already trying to piro the tail. Thus, the slider does not need to move that far left. Moving right is what it needs. (away from the boom)
Setting up in rate mode only ensures you setup correctly. If you screw up the setup in HH mode, the gyro will just correct what is not actually correct. It will fix the heading, but the travel will not be correct for extreme flights. You can get away with it in HH mode, but the tail will blow out in extreme flight. Then they blame Align for it, all the while, it was their fault for tail setup. Its the same on a 600. Except the offset is even more. The tail blades require a 7-8mm offset when folded up. Fwiw, I've never once setup in rate mode or used it. If you've flown with it, you'd know why. Its horrible. Rate mode is just a different gyro reaction... if the tail is setup correctly, it will work in either mode. But HH will cover up errors. Rate mode won't. |
03-14-2015, 09:35 AM | #5 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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Hi guys. I am setting up my 450l with gpro. I checked the manual and it calls for 10mm of pitch between the tail blades. In the OP someone stated 4mm. Just curious what I should use. Mabey 10 is too much?
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03-20-2015, 04:21 PM | #6 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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I found on my maiden that ten degrees is way too much. I reduced it and then it flew great.
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03-20-2015, 06:59 PM | #7 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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You measure 4mm between the plane of the tail blades when they are folded up. The diagram is in the manual.
Align doesn't give a measurement in degrees. I've ventured out on my own in nearly every single adjustment in the 450L. And I always come back to what Align had in the manual all along. My latest appreciation is where they say to set the V curve. 100 85 100 This sounds a bit crazy but OMG does the helicopter pop and rip. Align really impresses me and I do my best to read their broken english manuals back to back. The answers are all in there. You just gotta translate and dig lol. |
03-27-2015, 09:00 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
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03-27-2015, 10:57 PM | #9 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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I thought of an easier way to explain it. If the rudder gyro is enabled in HH mode.... you will never know what the rudder servo center is. It will always be making corrections to the heading and so you will certainly put the slider in the wrong spot. Move the FBL system and the servo will move too.
I setup the tail in either DIR mode with the 3GX or in the Gpro software. Both of these do not allow any gyro feedback. They are direct mode and true center. If the rudder servo is at it's true center (no HH input) you measure the 4mm offset at 90 degree servo horn. To test my own theory... I setup my tail in rate mode today and got it to lock. I will see if I can get any better behavior out of the tail in hurricanes when in HH mode. So I'm testing if the 4mm measurement is adequate or comes up short for tail setup. Last edited by RC/DC_5000; 03-29-2015 at 09:27 PM.. |
03-31-2015, 04:45 AM | #10 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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You do need to setup the tail in rate mode, this is the best way to achieve the best possible tail, predominantly in stops which are effected by a badly setup tail. While tail hold will be just as good with almost any setup, stops from piro's will be effected. Also bare in mind that different head speeds will effect the neutral tail position, a slower head speed will require more pitch and a higher one less, as the tail will be more effective. Another trick you might like to try, which puts the tail control arm at a much better mechanical position then off centre, is to flip the grips on the tail rotor assembly, to trailing edge control. This is actually a good mod as it puts the tail control arm at 90 degrees/parallel to the tail output shaft, while giving some tail pitch against the torque reaction of the model. Disregard the manual, I'll go check but I think it tells you to put the tail sldier in the middle position. It is a known fact the Gpro and later versions of the 3GX firmware, require you to trim the tail pushrod length while in rate mode to achieve a constant heading, then flick into HH mode and have a great tail. Going back to the OP's original post, what length servo arm do you have fitted? If you have reached the software travel limits, you need to fit a shorter arm to the tail servo to reduce mechanical movement. This will be a good thing to do anyway if you are running a low electronic travel limit, as you will be sacrificing tail resolution. My own 450L is running one of the small round disks with the steel control ball on the inner most hole. Ian |
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03-31-2015, 09:01 AM | #11 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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I haven't flown mine and I am in the process of building the head. But what I get out of the manual is that you set the tail slider in the middle position which gives about 2mm of blade deflection. I would guess this is enough to hold the tail in rate mode at whatever head speed they recommend.
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03-31-2015, 11:01 AM | #12 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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This picture is what I mean by saying the "middle" of its travel. The slider looks kinda to the left of center... but if you look at the amounts of travel before the slider hits its physical limits- the length of tail shaft showing on both sides of the tail shaft is actually equal. This position was strategically designed by Align as they offset the blade holders pitch angle to keep travel equal while still holding main blade torque at neutral.
With the slider in this position, there is a deflection in the blade holders to hold the main blade torque at a heading. I tried setting the tail up both ways, and the flying characteristics were the same. I'd positively agree that actually testing your tail slider position in rate mode is a good idea. I'm pretty comfortable measuring it and setting the tail slider in DIR mode. I agree that the tail slider position is crucial to gyro performance. Specifically in fast backward loops. The gyro sensor is extremely sensitive and it needs to know left limit, right limit, and true neutral. Flying it in rate mode is what confirms your tail slider position. If it holds a heading in rate mode.... your tail slider is at true neutral. To the OP, to fix your software limit problem- you make the tail control rod longer or shorter (depending on what limit is binding)... and then trim out the slider position via the software trim. This in turn gives you the room to get the limit set in the software without binding. If your slider is binding closer to the tail boom, with the software at its limit... make the tail control rod longer. After solving the binding... you still need to set the tail slider position correctly. Last edited by RC/DC_5000; 03-31-2015 at 12:21 PM.. |
04-17-2015, 10:46 AM | #13 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2006
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Ok I just went thru this with a new build for a customer-and the same thing happens -when you add the 4 mm pitch to the tail --the slider at full stroke binds and the software is set at 40 minimum -you cant adjust it without binding at hard over condition--I think it might be time to move the servo ball in to the next hole or drill a closer hole to the screw on the servo arm. this will allow more adjustment in the Gpro software.. besides we all know the closer the ball to the servo center the better-as long as you get full travel --the old tail wag trick...has any one tried this?
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04-17-2015, 10:52 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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04-24-2015, 04:43 AM | #15 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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When you say 90 degree servo horn do you mean in relation to the servo casing or to the pushrod? I am asking because, even if the servo is offset to the left of the tail boom the ball link is still a couple of mm to the right, so the rod is not perfectly parallel to the servo case (like in the manual picture).
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04-27-2015, 10:32 AM | #16 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Also, 4mm offset is not the same as middle of the pitch slider (at least in the case of my 450L). If you measure using Finless's method of marking the pushrod against the boom guides you will see that the middle actually coincides with 0 pitch.
This introduces an issue in setup which I discovered recently. You cannot have 90 degree servo, 4mm offset and equal tail endpoints values (only if you apply the dremmel mod and move the hub a bit outside, probably). So you have two possibilities: - either you adjust the pushrod length to have equal endpoint values (this is what I will try tomorrow) and then offset to 4mm using the gpro neutral tail setting or - you adjust the pushrod to 4mm offset at 90 (you get 90 by using the neutral tail setting in gpro if the servo center is not at 90 by default) and adjust the endpoint values (they will not be equal). I also used the other servo horn which came in the box and put the ball link at aprox 8mm from center (7.6mm to be more precise). This upped the endpoint values from 46 to 66. This should eliminate the tail wag I was experiencing. |
04-27-2015, 12:24 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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You can remove the need to grind the tail shaft and move the whole tail hub outwards by flipping the tail grips to trailing edge control. This changes the geometry enough to make everything better. . |
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05-04-2015, 09:40 AM | #18 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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You don't need to flip the grips or do any mods. Just center your tail servo with 90 degree horn with ball link on the inside hole as per manual and then put tail control arm at 90 to the boom.
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05-04-2015, 03:57 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Doesn't work out with the right tail pitch if you do this, try it, I have a 450L here and with the tail control arm parallel to the tail output shaft the tail pitch is going with the torque reaction on the model. The grip flip eliminates this problem and allows you to set the tail control arm as you have described. . |
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05-04-2015, 07:08 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
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