bert kammerer explains flybarlees unit

[aussiemick]

Originally Posted by halley

They assume your swash is 120 degrees, and your radio is giving 120 degree CCPM for the three swash channels. If your head is like that, boom, it will work well. If your head is not like that, then you'll have troubles or at least you'll miss the configurability of other units.

That is not quite correct.

During the programming of the 3G, the layout of the swash mixing is setup; step 5.2 E.LIM on page 11 of the manual.

Mick

[rickn816]

Originally Posted by francisfaustino

look on his website. he specifically say he's not a fan of flybarless systems. my impression is it doesn't seem like he meant it was a bad system or that there is something wrong with it. he simply preferred the feel of the conventional flybared rotor system. that's what i like about Bert. his candid honesty

There is a learning curve. With a mechanical flybar, there is a brief lag between the time that the paddles move and the blades respond. That lag does not exist on a FBL system. For someone who has spent years developing muscle memory for a mechanical flybar, it must be difficult to adjust to the difference in response speed.

I, too, am a relative beginner. I would not have a mechanical flybar, if only because they can be such a royal pain to square up. And, I'm not going to mention the additional costs and time to repair a mechanical system v. FLB.

I own GyroBot, 360, and Mini V-Bar. Each has strenghts and weaknesses. GyroBot has the best hardware. V-Bar is easiest to set up, The Skookum units give you incredible flexibility in adjusting the responses.

My two cents.

Rick

[dwesnor]

You need to remember that there are 2 philosophies in flybarless: A 3 axis gyro like the Align unit and a flybar simulator like the V-bar. They'll both feel different. I don't know if Bert has flown a flybar simulator, but he might have a different opinion of it. (Note: Different does not mean better.)

The Skookum units give you incredible flexibility in adjusting the responses.

I read through the instructions for the 360 today and I was impressed on how well they explained everything. It seems like you could set it up to feel like whatever you wanted, but without the aerodynamic effects of the paddles in the wind. I don't think anybody can condemn flybarless in general until you've really played with all the different hardware.

[Heechee]

Originally Posted by dwesnor

You need to remember that there are 2 philosophies in flybarless: A 3 axis gyro like the Align unit and a flybar simulator like the V-bar. They'll both feel different. I don't know if Bert has flown a flybar simulator, but he might have a different opinion of it. (Note: Different does not mean better.)

Please tell more! What's the difference in those philosophies?

[James Kovach]

Originally Posted by dwesnor

You need to remember that there are 2 philosophies in flybarless: A 3 axis gyro like the Align unit and a flybar simulator like the V-bar.

I'd be very interested in this comment as well. We got "chastised" for saying that the V-Bar was simulating a Flybar.

[rickn816]

Originally Posted by Heechee

Please tell more! What's the difference in those philosophies?

The GyroBot is not a flybar simulator, although you can use it with a mechanical flybar. The GyroBot simply puts a top-quality HH gyro on all three axes. You "tune" the unit like you would tune a tail gyro. If it wobbles, you turn down the gain.

The Skookum system allows you to program a lag to simulate a flybar. There are programmable decay paramaters that are supposed to give you a mechanical flybar feel. I minimize this function on my helis. If you go to the Skookum site, you can download the manual. The manual has detailed descriptions of the adjustments available toward the back of the document.

My personal preference is simpler is better. I personally prefer the GyroBot approach.

I flew my Mini V-Bar TRex 250 last night. It did not feel like it was simulating a mechanical flybar. I am not claiming to be an expert on the Mikado products as I have only had one since December.

Rick

[OnTheSnap]

The idea that vBar is trying to simulate a flybar is urban myth. The 4.0 software treats it like a 3 axis gyro.

[dwesnor]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

The idea that vBar is trying to simulate a flybar is urban myth. The 4.0 software treats it like a 3 axis gyro.

Somebody needs to talk to the guy who wrote the manual. (See page 3, first pagagraph of the v4 manual.)

[rickn816]

Originally Posted by dwesnor

Somebody needs to talk to the guy who wrote the manual. (See page 3, first pagagraph of the v4 manual.)

I can't speak to the author's intention or meaning.

The Skookum unit has a setting called "Hiller Decay" which is designed to simulate the effects of a mechanical flybar. I don't find anything similar on the V-Bar.

Rick

[dwesnor]

Yeah, there's nothing in the manual. I don't have the software so I don't know if there's something in there. One poster said that it had several modes ranging from feeling too much like a flybar to feeling nothing like a flybar.

If the Mikado is a flybar simulator, it may be that it just doesn't give you many adjustments.

Depending on how much adjustment capability it gives you and how deep the simulation goes, a flybar simulator would be like an infinitely programmable head, only without the wind effects. A 3-axis gyro would only give you what you get from a tail gyro, but in all 3 axes. Essentially gain and max rate in roll, yaw, and pitch.

[OICU812]

Originally Posted by rickn816

I can't speak to the author's intention or meaning.

The Skookum unit has a setting called "Hiller Decay" which is designed to simulate the effects of a mechanical flybar. I don't find anything similar on the V-Bar.

Rick

Sometime back in several earlier version of vstabi there were independant hiiler bell adjustments, but those have been tucked away and algorythms changed and no need in V for the decay settings anymore and such is all.

[HeathH]

Looks like a very simple setup. It appears to perform well too.

I still like to have a computer interface and multiple bank settings, so i dont think it will be for me. It is nice to have 3 banks setup and with a flip of a switch my heli can go from
1- stable and slow,
2 - fast,
3 - fast as hell.

[steph280]

Had a chat with an Align technician earlier this evening.

The Align 3G system is fully programmable, with complexity that rivals any of the existing system on the market today. In fact, the programmer software has already been completed. A lot of the setup parameters will eventually be opened up to user modifications through the programming kit. But for now, they want to keep some tried and true settings in the system, so that FBL novices can learn the basic setup and experience the benefits of FBL system.

Once they open it up for external programming, the possibility is endless.

[rubbersoul]

that's good to know, because I just got mine today. Started installing and lo and behold a blade grip was missing a washer. Good thing I check as recommended in the video. I guess an employee was sleepy when this head went through his hands.

[Giggen]

Got my set yesterday. I have mounted it in my T-450 Sport kit with microheli head. The setup is a no brainer to do. I have been flying V-bar, sk360 and Rondo before and is used to fiddle with parameters to get it to work right. Testflight later today.

The T-rex 450 equipment is:
3x 5065mg
1x ds520
Align 450M
Kontronik 40.6.18
Microheli head
Align 3G flybarless
Hyperion G3 2200mah 35C

[Felt]

Giggen, Can you post a pic of your setup? Thanks

[rickn816]

Originally Posted by steph280

Had a chat with an Align technician earlier this evening.

The Align 3G system is fully programmable, with complexity that rivals any of the existing system on the market today. In fact, the programmer software has already been completed. A lot of the setup parameters will eventually be opened up to user modifications through the programming kit. But for now, they want to keep some tried and true settings in the system, so that FBL novices can learn the basic setup and experience the benefits of FBL system.

Once they open it up for external programming, the possibility is endless.

Good news. Thanks for the update.

Rick

[EatMorePizza]

Originally Posted by francisfaustino

no wonder he kept saying in the video he won't be doing a lot of flying videos of it. i bet he couldn't wait to remove it after making that video.

that's what it seemed like, but I sure hope that's not the case considering he is affiliated with align as far as sponsorship goes. I also felt that vibe from him. Although the system looked great if I were Align I wouldnt be happy with this video.

[villain]

Originally Posted by Giggen

Got my set yesterday. I have mounted it in my T-450 Sport kit with microheli head. The setup is a no brainer to do. I have been flying V-bar, sk360 and Rondo before and is used to fiddle with parameters to get it to work right. Testflight later today.

Have you done the testflight in the snowing weather today Giggen ?

RMA

[Giggen]

Tested it in the snowy wheather yes No problem. I setup as the manual said and nothing else. The only thing i had to change was ail gain. I got some strikeback on ail input. Flies like a regular flybarsetup but has more power. It is also more stable.