My Short Stay in Logo Land

[jazzboy]

Originally Posted by AusAnt

Andy, there's lots of 'antenna switched' messages earlier in the log too. MrMel has always said that the odd switch here or there is fine, but lots of switches in a log indicates something wrong. Some people have investigated that error and found a bad cable between sat and mini (those little connectors are not particularly reliable).

I don't think I've ever seen that Satellite data framing error before. I wonder if the multiple antenna switches followed by the sat data framing error indicates some problem with sats or more likely the cables or connectors joining them together. But really the most experienced person by far is MrMel - start a thread on the Vbar forum with the log, and hopefully he will see it and comment.

The raised vibes generally don't look too bad to me.

This is the crash sequence and there are no vibes or sat issues. The time matches the loss of control to a crash 2 seconds later. The aileron message at 1:34 is a bit alarming.

1:34 The Cyclic Ring is
active
If the agility of a Heli is set to the possibilities of the mechanic and aerodynamic limits, this did not
happen. However in 3D Flying the agility cannot set high enough to fullfill the pilots needs. So this
limiter is in action dependant on the flwon actions. If it is active very often, there is a potential problem
with the mechanics. Using lighter blades will help increasing the natural agility preventing hitting the
cyclic ring all the time.
1:34 Aileron Sensor Value
out of Range
The Sensor delivers Values that are not trustful. Rotational rates, that will create this values are
usually not possible in air. The Sensor may be defective. This can happen in certain cases if the heli is
handleled on ground, or on very hard landings or very extreme Vibrations.
1:36 Extreme Vibration
Level
Vibrations are extreme. That means, that the measurement signal is much lower than the signal level
of the vibrations. No usable flying is possible with this level. Everything has to be checked and
extended tests are needed to isolate and eliminate the source of vibrations

[AusAnt]

You can also get that message when a crash happens - say the blades hit the ground or strike the boom, the sensor sees such incredibly large 'vibes' that it goes out of range, meaning that the oscillations the sensor is seeing are too large for the range of motion it is calibrated for.

It kind of looks to me like that is the moment of the crash, then 2 seconds later the extreme vibrations is the end of the crash as the blade motion is slowing to a stop.

I think if there was a problem with the sensor, it would be evident earlier on in the log.

[jazzboy]

Originally Posted by AusAnt

You can also get that message when a crash happens - say the blades hit the ground or strike the boom, the sensor sees such incredibly large 'vibes' that it goes out of range, meaning that the oscillations the sensor is seeing are too large for the range of motion it is calibrated for.

It kind of looks to me like that is the moment of the crash, then 2 seconds later the extreme vibrations is the end of the crash as the blade motion is slowing to a stop.

I think if there was a problem with the sensor, it would be evident earlier on in the log.

The crash was very quick it could not have been 2 seconds between impacts but from lift off/hover to crash was pretty much 2 seconds.

[Kalpazan]

I'd say your front right (aileron) servo suddenly jammed (causing the Cyclic Ring is active message) and then it crashed. Everything else in that flight looks just nice.

[jazzboy]

Originally Posted by Kalpazan

I'd say your front right (aileron) servo suddenly jammed (causing the Cyclic Ring is active message) and then it crashed. Everything else in that flight looks just nice.

Tested the servos, they all worked after the crash. It says right in the message it can be a bad sensor. I sent the log to Mikado and will wait to see what they say as they build the things.

As there are a few possibilities I want to be 100% sure of the cause of such a serious loss of control.

Cheers,
Andy

[Kalpazan]

OK, let us know what their reply is.

[jazzboy]

For sure. If I can isolate the problem I might have to acquiesce to my local Logo buddies Logofreak and Ausant and get the thing back in the air. I was able to sell some mountain bike parts to come up with the $320 (damn 12%Canadian taxes) and will be rebuilding it either way.

[LogoFreak]

That's the spirit buddy :-) You know you can count on me to wrench for ya :-)

[JohnDoe.]

I have been keeping up with this thread and I'm glad you decided to stick with it. I hope everything works out.

[AusAnt]

Good news Andy. We'll both be happy to help.

[jazzboy]

I have been working on trouble shooting my rig. Rainer has been very helpful in narrowing the tests. Unfortunately it looks like the Vbar is not working properly. I replaced the servos, just in case, with brand new Hyperion HV servos. While going through the set up I noticed that the lights on the sats would go out and the servos would stop responding. I had a set of brand new sats and new cables, so they were hooked up and the same results followed. I tried it with a 4 cell nicad flight pack and all seemed to be good. Went back to the Western Robotics bec and the problem was back and looking like a power problem but made a vid (Video 7) and the meter never flinched, but as Rainer pointed out, a quick drop might be too fast to see. The final test was with a brand new Hyperion 2S, 1800 mah fully charged battery and the problem came back (Video 8). these are the links to to vids. And the control rods are free but not catching on anything (made sure of that).

So...static was not the cause of this crash. This test was done with 3 servos in the frame. No boom, tail or motor. Kinda looks like a bad Vbar at the moment.

[ame]http://youtu.be/F25Rv9k3l3M[/ame]
[ame]http://youtu.be/QtJR23rJptg[/ame]

[Laughingstill]

What model WR BEC was it? If it was not a Super or Super Mini, It would not be big enough for a heli that size.....I still have a bunch of 500SE stuff. I will give you the grips, spindle, boom holders, and I think I have some bearings also Will that help you get in the air quicker??? I will look to see what else I have you can have also

[jazzboy]

Thanks for the offerI did purchase all the bits so the rebuild is ok. The fact that the problem was still there with a brand new, fully charged Hyperion 2S 1800mah battery points to the Vbar as the culrprit. The heli flew perfectly for the first twelve flights so I think the Vbar gradually degraded and the second video shows the power losses with the battery. Sadly it looks like a bad Vbar.

[Laughingstill]

I am glad you are not giving up . Just to be sure, you are using a Super or Super Mini WR BEC correct?

[DannyvG]

how many servo plugs did you use to power the electronics from the lipo or bec?
A single servo plug is only rated for 2.5A continuously so perhaps the voltage drop is to much if you only used one plug...
Have you also tested everything with a full size RX attached? IIRC the satellites work on 3.3V and perhaps the stepdown in the vbar is failing.
What do the vbar logs look like after the glitches?

[Rototerrier]

These things happen. I had a brand new AR7200BX that I fired up at least 20 times while I was building and configuring the heli. Took it out for the maiden and the thing wouldn't initialize. Took it back to the bench and never could get it to work again. Had to send it back for a refund.

I was 1 initialization away from catastrophe. Electronics fail all the time...and more often in the air than on the ground. I got very very lucky. I think you are doing a fine job at diagnosing the issue. Keep it up.

[sgrim80]

Originally Posted by jazzboy

Thanks for the offerI did purchase all the bits so the rebuild is ok. The fact that the problem was still there with a brand new, fully charged Hyperion 2S 1800mah battery points to the Vbar as the culrprit. The heli flew perfectly for the first twelve flights so I think the Vbar gradually degraded and the second video shows the power losses with the battery. Sadly it looks like a bad Vbar.

Is the VBar being replaced?

[Redlight11]

[QUOTE=Rototerrier;3988940. Electronics fail all the time...and more often in the air than on the ground. [/QUOTE]

So true. My Jive 120 died during spool up at Joe Nall a couple weeks ago. If it would have died 30 seconds later it would have been bad because I was about to shoot a big auto. Thankfully Readyheli and there awesome customer service replaced my Jive the following week.

[jazzboy]

Originally Posted by djamgils

how many servo plugs did you use to power the electronics from the lipo or bec?
A single servo plug is only rated for 2.5A continuously so perhaps the voltage drop is to much if you only used one plug...
Have you also tested everything with a full size RX attached? IIRC the satellites work on 3.3V and perhaps the stepdown in the vbar is failing.
What do the vbar logs look like after the glitches?

Tried it with both bec leads as well and the results were the same. I am only testing with three servos and no load so it can't be over taxing the power. It worked fine with a 4 cell nicad flight pack.

[jazzboy]

Originally Posted by sgrim80

Is the VBar being replaced?

Don't know yet as it looks like it has to go back to Germany.