What an awesome helicopter - nearly there E Flight

[airheli1201]

Originally Posted by Inverse

And those guys thinking that others or themselves are being "ripped off" then I suggest you take a business course because Horizon have built a fantastic earner around a simple business model catering to a niche market.
If you don't like their gear then show your disapproval by not buying it.
We are lucky here to have company spokesmen pipe up from time to time and when they do all they seem to receive in reply is agro.

I disagree. Yes while it may be true that HH have built us many great models for this niche market. It doesn't justify the fact that we consumers are expected to pay £10 UK here for a new motor every 50 flights or so.
And I find it quite strange for you to tell consumers who feel "ripped off" to take a business course. I mean, what is a good business model after all? To me (who have a Bachelor and Masters in Finance/Business studies), it doesn't make any sense that even if someone take a business course will then think that "oh £10 after 50 flights or so, I can accept that beacuase they have provided someting in niche market?".
You say that "If you don't like their gear then show your disapproval by not buying it." doesn't make sense as well. How would anyone know that motor will fail after 50 flights or so BEFORE their purchase of the Nano unless they did some research before hand?? Your argument only stands if HH somehow wrote on the retail box that the brushed motor is expected to only last after X amount of flights and after you are expected to pay £10 for a new motor.

Simply put, you cannot deny that there are many consumers disappointed with the fact that nano requires change of motor after X amount of flight. I am sure there many people would agree that NOT having to change/buy new motor after every so often and not having to spend time to buy/install brushless option is a good thing.

I hope I didn't offend you or anyone. I just want to state my opinion. Peace

[Epoweredrc]

Brushless is more efficient, can take more heat,better flight times, weigh less.
Today there is no reason to come out with anything brushed.
Yes blade is for newbies but even newbies or especially newbies dont want to work on there new heli after 50 flights.
So what heli cost $50 more up front.
Were buying these and putting 50-80 in them depending on esc motor combo i would think HH would want to see them for more to start then they could focus more on replacement booms,blades ect. Then motors
I loved my mcpx but loved it lot more brushless one of the micro planes had a 3 in one you could plug a bl esc into they know that plane should been BL from start

Im sure the micro heli thing is over i mean we have nano,mcpx,130x,300x what else is there imma guess mabe they keep going bigger 500 be out anytime now maybe a 600 next

Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Tapatalk 2

[Pete32]

Originally Posted by Inverse
"And those guys thinking that others or themselves are being "ripped off" then I suggest you take a business course because Horizon have built a fantastic earner around a simple business model catering to a niche market.
If you don't like their gear then show your disapproval by not buying it.
We are lucky here to have company spokesmen pipe up from time to time and when they do all they seem to receive in reply is agro."

Well said. I find just a few words from a company spokesman separates the wheat from the chaff quickly. There are a lot of people that really enjoy/need some straight talk. Kind of a silent majority thing.

Pete

[HeliHoverAP]

Originally Posted by hotshot888

You must have missed my point as well. Let's talk about some facts.

You seem to think it's OK to rip off beginners. That makes a lot of sense (not).

Or, are you suggesting companies should sell defective, low quality products to increase their profits? That also makes a lot of sense (not).

You don't sell a product with an easily rectifiable quality issue, just so you can make more money off your customers in the long run, through replacement sales. That is not good (or honest) business. HH has done this again and again, with their micro line. And that's a fact.

Would you knowingly buy any product whose (accident free) maintenance costs in one year added up to 2 to 3 times the original price?

Would you buy a $1000 TV if you had to buy a new $250 (whatever) for it.. every month?

Not likely.

Why shouldn't HH be held accountable like any other manufacturer in the world?

In just about any other manufacturing sector this would be unacceptable. And that's a fact.

Organizations like Consumer Reports, for example, would tear HH a new one and kill their sales. And that's a fact.

But since the RC helis are such a specialized market, there is no "over watch" (except these forums) and they get away with pre-planned robbery.

HH knows the issues these BRMs have, continues to use them whenever possible, and will not warranty them. Are you suggesting this is not an intentional money making action on HHs part?

Don't be so naive. This is a scam, and should be called what it is.

And for a HH rep to give a BS price point excuse is just insulting to anyone who takes the time to think about it, or who knows anything about marketing and product placement. And that's a fact.

A $20 increase will have virtually no effect on a highly specialized $150 toys sales. And that's a fact.

If you put a warning on the box that the motor would need replacing every 200 minutes of use, how do you think the helis sales would go?

They would be freakin' toast! And that's a fact.

C'mon don't stand (or stand up) for BS.

If everybody did, nothing would ever get fixed / improved. And that too, is a fact.

Wow. So emotional over a 150 dollar hobby addition. Ever heard the saying you get what you pay for? I feel for 150 bucks, you get a decent product, and so do thousands of others. If your not happy with your 10 dollar motor burning up in your 150 dollar Heli, well then maybe it's time you step up your game. Go spend 2 grand on a 700 and then tell me what you think of your nano. You'll probably love it.

And please quit bringing up Honda and tvs. These are Rc helis, a whole mother realm. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

If you truely feel that you got ripped off and your nano is not completely destroyed then I'm sure horizon will make it right. If not sell it and put that money towards your 700 build.

[chrisconn2]

Originally Posted by hotshot888

Let's talk about some facts.

HH knows the issues these BRMs have, continues to use them whenever possible, and will not warranty them. Are you suggesting this is not an intentional money making action on HHs part?

Don't be so naive. This is a scam, and should be called what it is.

I have a fact for you, the BRM in my mcpx is running fine after a yr. and a 1/2 of beating it like a red headed step child

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Originally Posted by Pete32

Originally Posted by Inverse
Well said. I find just a few words from a company spokesman separates the wheat from the chaff quickly. There are a lot of people that really enjoy/need some straight talk. Kind of a silent majority thing.

Pete

Except when it's clearly not straight talk, and many replies have shown. The DEMONSTRATED price difference (little to none) in components completely negates Dave's post. I agree it's great to have company reps who post on here, not just Dave, but James Hayley, Mikel Graham, Dave Ribbe and others. The value isn't just from them posting here, but when they don't just feed us "the company line". In this case it was very clearly "the company line" and should be recognized as much.

[HeliHoverAP]

Originally Posted by Napoleon_Tanerite

Except when it's clearly not straight talk, and many replies have shown. The DEMONSTRATED price difference (little to none) in components completely negates Dave's post. I agree it's great to have company reps who post on here, not just Dave, but James Hayley, Mikel Graham, Dave Ribbe and others. The value isn't just from them posting here, but when they don't just feed us "the company line". In this case it was very clearly "the company line" and should be recognized as much.

It might be a company line, but it's also called business. Do you honestly feel that Horizon does this for fun. Or better yet do this because they feel a need to provide. HELL NO. Its called making money and if bumping the price of a product up 20 to 25% means less sales (less sales=less money), then thats probaly not in there best interest. Its not rocket science.

[hotshot888]

I know my post were a bit harsh, but I feel I was justified in writing them. I have a strong background in manufacturing / marketing, with many years of experience, and can see a ruse when one is present.

I do enjoy Blade products for the most part, the BRMs being an exception. I felt the HH reps comments were less than honest at best, and somebody had to respond in turn. I felt I made valid points and supported my arguments.

For those who disagree with me, please read my posts again... and think about what I'm saying. This is not about me, it's about all the Blade micro customers. I wrote the posts to get people thinking about how it should / could be better... for all of us.

Of course, I expected there will be responses on both sides of the fence, but sometimes the lack on insight from some people is unbelievable. There are eagles and there are sheep, after all.

BTW I have never questioned the design ingenuity (outside of the use of BRMs) or customer support provided by HH.

[hotshot888]

Everybody,

I have already posed a question that will bring my point to light. I will now ask it again, in hopes of an honest response.

Dave,
How many replacement brushed main motors has Blade projected to sell per Nano sold?

Simply put, if the answer is more than 1 replacement per 10 units, then there is an obvious deficiency in the quality of the component, that should be addressed. (1 in 10 is very generous on my part - do some research in product manufacturing standards if you disagree.)

If it’s not addressed, one must ask: why?

Let’s wait for Dave’s answer, before we continue to argue amongst ourselves (the customers).

[HeliHoverAP]

Originally Posted by hotshot888

I know my post were a bit harsh, but I feel I was justified in writing them. I have a strong background in manufacturing / marketing, with many years of experience, and can see a ruse when one is present.

I do enjoy Blade products for the most part, the BRMs being an exception. I felt the HH reps comments were less than honest at best, and somebody had to respond in turn. I felt I made valid points and supported my arguments.

For those who disagree with me, please read my posts again... and think about what I'm saying. This is not about me, it's about all the Blade micro customers. I wrote the posts to get people thinking about how it should / could be better... for all of us.

Of course, I expected there will be responses on both sides of the fence, but sometimes the lack on insight from some people is unbelievable. There are eagles and there are sheep, after all.

BTW I have never questioned the design ingenuity (outside of the use of BRMs) or customer support provided by HH.

I am also in the manufacturing/marketing business too! I also have several years in the sales of RC. It's simple, you have high end products and not so high end products. From your above posts you are obviously involved (or was involved) in a high end product or, your sales are down. Blade helis are be no means high end and I beleive your trying to compare them that way. It is just not feasable to produce a top notch product at a rock bottom price. It is what it is. They could very well make it better for all of us. That would be easy, but then sales would fall and there would be no more Horizon. Can you not see this, or is this where your lack of insight stands.

[hotshot888]

Originally Posted by HeliHoverAP

I am also in the manufacturing/marketing business too! I also have several years in the sales of RC. It's simple, you have high end products and not so high end products. From your above posts you are obviously involved (or was involved) in a high end product or, your sales are down. Blade helis are be no means high end and I beleive your trying to compare them that way. It is just not feasable to produce a top notch product at a rock bottom price. It is what it is. They could very well make it better for all of us. That would be easy, but then sales would fall and there would be no more Horizon. Can you not see this, or is this where your lack of insight stands.

By this logic, you are suggesting that companies that have strong standards in manufacturing go out of business. Not to bring up Honda again, but... c'mon man that's just silly.

[hotshot888]

Incidentally, the views of this post have doubled overnight. Do you think that is just because “I’m a jerk”?

Maybe it’s because many of us are interested in this subject since we have all had to deal with this issue personally, and have felt “less than fully satisfied” as Blade customers (relating to this specific issue).

[HeliHoverAP]

Originally Posted by hotshot888

By this logic, you are suggesting that companies that have strong standards in manufacturing go out of business. Not to bring up Honda again, but... c'mon man that's just silly.

No. We are obviously not on the same level here.

Once again, there are high end products and not so high end

Once again, you get what you pay for

Once again, Blade helis are not high end

Do you buy a Honda and expect BMW quality. No. Try calling up Honda and ask them why they dont put a supercharged V-8 in their civic.

With such a niche market, Horizon can not afford (and neither could the cosumer) a high end micro heli.

[hotshot888]

This is not a question of high end or low end. This is a question of quality of components. Honda and BMW both make good quality vehicles.

It has nothing to do with putting a race car engine in a compact car. What are you talking about?

It has been clearly (and repeatedly) shown that to put a BM in the Nano would be a negligible price increase.

In addition, if a buyer has to spend additional $ to replace the motor routinely, your point is completely moot. The customer has to spend more anyways. Why not do it right from the start and be straight up about it?

[bobo14]

The nail was hit on the head with saying blade is not a top of the line product. nor do they seem to want to be. They are in a niche market and they've targeted a niche within that niche. The trick is this is a necessary step for almost all new comers to the hobby; a small, simple, durrable and cheep...chech that... in-expensive introduction.

A 300X is going to be less expensive to fix than a Trex250 because of more plastic parts that are cheeper to manufacture. This is something that will appeal to the CP new comer. Not too mention out of the box ready is very nice for someone new. I remember feeling totaly over whelmed opening up my Trex450 box and laying out my parts. But i did marvel at how well each piece was crafted.

For thoes who want a brushless option, i think that would cost them too much $ in the long run. These things are all made in a factory and once you change one little thing you might need a whole new machine to make it and who knows how many more employies.

I bet this is why HH is happy to outsource the upgrade parts to companies like Lynx and Microheli. Let them deal with the manufacturing cost and just take a royalty on each unit sold.

[hotshot888]

Originally Posted by bobo14

For those who want a brushless option, i think that would cost them too much $ in the long run. These things are all made in a factory and once you change one little thing you might need a whole new machine to make it and who knows how many more employees.

The brushed motors are not made by Blade, they are outsourced. Changing to a brushless motor would be a question of screwing in a different part (motor), on the assembly line, that's all. If Blade made their own motors your point would be accurate.

I will give you that adding an ESC would have a bigger impact on the (production) line, but with economies of scale in effect, these changes would not be very significant in terms of cost, assembly time, skill or efficiency.

Keep in mind this only applies if a new board is not used. Blade does not make their control boards either, that's why they are careful to "scratch" out the original manufacturers ID info on the chips (Even on the servo chips). This is done to slow down knock offs from "same sourcing" their components as Blade).

I don't expect Blade to change the past. I expect them to grow and get better with each model, learn from the past, so to speak. This is why I take exception when new models suffer the same issues as older models, when a fix is known.

[Go for it]

Please guys, this is all counterproductive. The most important thing for me is to have a small enought bird to fly in the house, when the weather does'nt permit to fly outside. It also has to be CP, otherwise I don't realy learn anything and it also has to be reasonnably priced so I can affort it. Being so resilient to crashs is an added bonus.

Is the Nano all of this, yes.
Is it perfect, no.
Would I prefer and would I pay more for a brushless, yes.
Is the short life of the motor intentionnal and act like a hiden tax on it, maybe

It's a known fact that 50% of the rc helicopters that are sold worldwide never fly more then 5 minutes. The proportion is probably even highter in the entry level market, where the Nano is positionned. These people will never be conserned with a 4-5 hours life expectancy of the motor. In their study, Horizon have found that if they price it at $200.00 this 50% won't buy it. I feel sorry for them, but at the same time gratefull that they pay 50% of the R&D and the manufacturing expenses. If only those that actualy fly it and go to the end of the motor had to pay for all the expenses, most of us would'nt be able to affort it anyway.

I'm the first to be surprise that I'm defening Blade inc. After the most frustrating and expensive experience with the mcpx, I swore never to buy anything from Blade again.

I came to realize, that any of us who critisize, and I put myself first, because I've done that a lot, can produce a bird like that. If I ask my friendly neighbourhood ingeneer, machinist, mecanic, and plastic molder to built me one, if he can, which I doubt, it would cost $10's or $100's of thousands to get a barely fonctionnal prototype.

So please lets stop arguing an insulting each other and try to find solutions to the problems at hand.

I'm making an offer. I'm prepare to pay $189.00(negotiable) for a brushless Nano at the express condition that it does'nt weight more then 30 g. I don't need it to be bondled with batteries, charger and transmitter.

Anyone interested to take me on that.

[hotshot888]

So then you must agree, that Blades approach is to get us in the door cheap(er) and then hit us later with repeated hidden costs?

[Go for it]

Originally Posted by hotshot888

So then you must agree, that Blades approach is to get us in the door cheap(er) and then hit us later with repeated hidden costs?

I said maybe.

I had that impression with the mCPx and I got really mad and bash them everywhere I could. The next bird I bought was a T-Rex 250 and what a relief. Quality and precision are the words.

This time I bought the Nano fully conscious of Blade business model and up till now I don't regret it. Like I said, we can't get anything like that anywhere at any price, so we have to make with it. It's a jungle out there, in accord or not with their way of surviving, we all benefit by having that bird.

Lets consentrate in solving the problems now. There is a tread with a poll on the life span of the motor, and many explain what they have done and how it helps. Some use oil, some let it cool off, etc. There is another tread on the brushless conversion, I thing Dylan is very close to offering us a solution.

Keep flying

[hotshot888]

Cheers.