What is a sport capable of?

[crimsonrain22]

The K3d looks like a good heli but im still learning towards the raven when the time comes. One thing I like about century is they have stayed true to there design and parts interchangeability and have been around for a long time. Buying the top of the line heli whos parts may not be around always scares me. I could be wrong as I dont know how long the knight has been around but I know century has stood the test of time.

[skunkworx]

Another valid point. That's why I said it'd be better to stick with it, but I can't substantiate it in my book. Compass has been around for a few years now and they are starting to gain traction because they have been working on their PR a lot. I figure if you are going to order parts completely online, you might as well get the one that has a good balance between price and performance. The issue I have with Century is that parts are expensive and aren't always the best quality. (Tail booms and bearings especially).
Good example of price differences: Knight Fiberglass canopy-$39.99, Raven 2-piece FRP Canopy-$44.95. Tail shaft: K3D $3.19, Raven $4.95. feathering shaft: K3D $7.49 for two, Raven $8.95 for one! Main Shaft: K3D $6.49, Raven $9.95. Tail boom: K3D $6.99, Raven $10.95. The Knight uses 1-piece fame sets, the Raven uses two. The Knight uses a $9 belt -VS- $50 torque tube. The list goes on and on.
Overall, you get much more for your money out of the Knight and the parts support is getting to be as good as the Aligns (Just without the ugly helicopter looks to accompany it!) Good luck with your choices guys!

[GyroAl]

Skunkworks

I beg to differ, relative to cost of operation, quality of parts and better heli overall.

e.g. Fiberglass canopy - That does not mean better for the job at hand. I have had a number of helis over the years with F/G canopies - and I must say, that unless you are willing to repair fiberglass and repaint it (I hate painting) after a mishap, then you are much better with the rather indestructable plastic canopy that one gets with the Raven. So after most crashes, you may have to buy a new F/G canopy for the Knight, not so with the Raven. So right there I will have saved $40.00. I have lost count of how many prangs I have had with my Century birds and still have not bought a new canopy. These plastic ones just seem to pop back into shape....so that alone will have saved me $40.00 per crash!!

One piece molded frame sets are also not necessarily a plus in a crash. I again have yet to buy a new upper frame set for any of my Hawks or Ravens, and almost always been able to straighten their lower frames, if they got bent. But if the one piece frame fractures anywhere, as the whole frame system has to be disassembled and the new ones assembled...a lot more work on any heli.

Also of note, is relative stability in the market. In the past five years, how many different distributors have they had in the USA? Century has been under the same US distributiion (themselves) for twenty years.

I could also get into analysing the head, power transmission system, tail drive and rotor systems and tell you why I think the Raven is superior (while remaining one of the lightest 50's on the market today), but I think you get the picture.

[skunkworx]

Never meant to say you had to get one, or that the Raven wasn't a good heli at all. They are both awesome, I just happen to like mine for my reasons and you like yours for your own. I've had a Hawk crash twice and both times the damage was much worse than I expected. Maybe you found all the strengths of the manufacturer, but I've been soured on them and it's hard to change opinions. Sorry to have run amok with the thread (I did acknowledge that the Hawk does fly nicely and is a very capable heli), and I'm not here to change your taste. I wish the best of luck to all who do enjoy the Hawk/Kinetic/Raven helis and I applaud those who stick up for them (kinda reminds me of the loyalties with ThunderTiger products!). No hard feelings I hope!

[JustPlaneChris]

Originally Posted by GyroAl

I could also get into analysing the head, power transmission system, tail drive and rotor systems and tell you why I think the Raven is superior (while remaining one of the lightest 50's on the market today), but I think you get the picture.

I'm a big fan of the Raven too, but my Knight tips the scales at 6 lbs 14 oz without fuel. That's LIGHT.

[crimsonrain22]

Skunkworx. No hard feelings at all this is exactly what helifreak is about sharing you love for the bird you fly and telling others all the good and bad about it. To be honest I have never heard of the knight before you pointed it out to me and I now have yet more more option out there to look out for.

[skunkworx]

Cool. I say get both! lol

[RAV50]

Chris - yes that is very light. My first Raven weighed in without fuel at 6 lbs 15 oz. (could have saved a few ozs. if I had used a smaller battery pack (it had a big 2400mah NiCd pack) and used a lighter governor (it had the GV-1) and lighter blades etc. My current one weigs in at 7 lb 15 oz.

As you can see, one can make over a pound difference in the weight of one's heli, by using different, gyro, servos, mufflers, governor, blades mufflers and bling (e.g. painted canopies, full metal heads etc.)

I also really like the two-stage drive system (no critical alignment required between the clutch and clutch bell, so the clutch, lining and support bearings seem to last forever). The stock Predator type of torque tube and the stock Predator's tail rotor system that comes with the Raven, may add a bit of overall weight, but they are worth it. These tail rotors are really bullet proof. IMHO, the best I have ever seen on any heli (and I also have some very expensive 90's)

I also was impressed with the silver/grey fiberglass/carbon fiber blades that come in the stock Raven kit. There are a number of other 50 flyers at our field who now use them on their Rappy's and their T600's.

Back to weight, I think the relevant weight spec on any heli, is that of the finished airframe without any electronics, motor, muffler or blades.

[JustPlaneChris]

I may yet end up with a Raven, because I really do love the Hawk/Raven head design (mixers on grips) and the smooooooth control feel it provides. I also love the drive system. As you say, RAV, it's brain-dead easy to set up and virtually maintenance-free.

What I do find puzzling is how few Century helis you see at fly-ins. I've been to two recently (fairly large, with 100+ pilots) and I had the only Century machines there. WTH?

[skunkworx]

Kinda the same deal with Xcell and ThunderTiger, they're a bit localized. Back east, mostly I've seen Xcells, midwest-Raptors, West coast-Align. There are a few hardcore guys that stick with them, but most go for the Align helis. The Hawk/Kinetic/Raven are not exactly the most attractive looking birds either. More like vultures compared to the sleek lines of more modern designs. It's also probably more of a marketing presence than actual (heli) capability. The Century design is not as 'progressive' or 'edgy' as the newer stuff on the market, and therefore, they get a much lower market share. They are still using virtually the same design they've had since starting out, and many feel (or have experienced the difference) that they don't perform as well as the newer models. The only real proof worth considering would be to actually try one out for yourself and make a comparison.
To me, the Hawk is quite smooth, but that's about it. It's not snappy or quick in almost any way. The Raven will undoubtedly have a better power to weight ratio, but it is still limited by the geometry of the head.

[Ray Fernandez]

All comments are valid.

K3D has it's points (good or bad); Raven has it's points (good or bad). Word is that the Raven is being redone. A newer version should be coming soon. I would like to see more information on it.

[crimsonrain22]

Well I finally worked up the nerve today to see what it will do and did some aileron rolls with the sport. Eather my tuning is off or the OS. 32 is lacking the power to hold in inverted but it did roll fine losing a bit of altitude. Took the wife with my to the field and had her man the camera. Only stills though I don't do video

[skunkworx]

Nice! Got any side or front shots of it? I like your paint job. My buddy airbrushed his windshield on and is going to be painting the rest whenever he can get around to it. He uses House of Kolor paints, so it should turn out pretty nice. Not sure what colors just yet, but I'll post up some pics if I get a chance.

About the rolls, it's probably more pitch management. While the .32 is a little under powered for this heli, it should have enough grunt to pull off flips, loops, rolls, and maybe some rainbows. For it's size, the hawk is pretty capable, but you have to be real gentle on the sticks because hard movements do tend to bog it a little. Lighter paddles would make your roll rate a little faster and getting max deflection will ensure that it's mechanically maxed out (meaning that other factors are what is keeping it from flipping quickly). Did you get the red dampeners as well? Those made a big difference in the ones I've flown.

One question I have for you full-time Hwak guys: When you fix up your canopy, do you remove the raised plastic center piece and install the windshield, or do you paint right over it? My buddy ended up painting it. I must admit, it looked a bit wierd at first, but as soon as I saw it with black paint on there, I thought it looked pretty darn cool. Plus I figured it'd help sturdy up the rigidity of the canopy in a crash. Anyone have similar outcomes?

[crimsonrain22]

I have some side shots on my other computer I will post them up tomorrow if I remember. As for the sport it is bone stock upgrades are gonna start soon the red dampers better paddles and a faster collective servo are on the list. Im pretty happy with the hawk. I used to flying a trex so the power to weight ratio is alot different on the hawk. On the rolls i lost about 10 feet on the rolls one one I even let it drop a little more trying to give the slow servos time to catch up for a inverted hover but I felt it start to bog a little so I brought it the rest of the way over. Im really getting hooked on this nitro stuff.

[RAV50]

The Sport with a can do some very nice rolls - three in a row are even relatively easy when you can keep the rotor speed up..that is the secret with any nitro heli.

For the following I am assuming you are in an idle up type of throttle curve.

An electric will always turn the motor at the speed selected by the ESC setting. So even throwing a bigger load at it, without changing the ESC setting, the motor will just draw more current automatically from the battery pack, to maintain the speed of the motor (which in turn maintains the speed of the rotor).

It is the rotor speed that defines the cyclic rate. As that bleeds off, so does the cyclic (in this case the roll) rate.

With a nitro heli, as you load it, by adding the cyclic to roll, the rotor speed will bleed off. Simply because the load has increased, but nothing has cause the motor to give more power to absorb that extra load required to maintain the rotor speed. So you will need a cyclic to throttle mix set-up in your radio. This is far more important on low power helis, then on the higher powered ones, but we use it in all of them...it just requires less on the bigger ones that have motors with far more torque then the OS32.

So go into your radio and find the mix menu. Set the aileron channel as the master and the throttle as the slave, then set for at least a 50% mix on the 32....you may find higher even better. Now do the same for the elevator. I found a good article here explaining this:

http://www.leisuretech.ca/hints_throttle_pitch.html

Now go out and try the roll, keeping in mind that, due to the transational lift of a moving heli, you are not using as much positive collective right side up as you do in the hover (in fact you will find you are only at about +2 degrees or so in FFF, so you will not need very much through the inverted segment either. So
DO NOT PUMP THE COLLECTIVE STICK VERY MUCH THROUGH THE ROLL. In fact, I usually show people that they can do a pretty good single roll WITHOUT pumping the collective at all. It is doing multiple rolls and stationary rolls that the collective pumping becomes more important.

Also a big difference between the Hawk Sport and the Pro, relative to any type of inverted maneuver ,was the simple addition of these inexpensive spacers, that compress the inner ID of the dampers to the same feathering spindle system.

http://www.centuryheli.com/products/...&prtnm=HW3180B

See the difference in the assembly on page 12 of the Hawk Pro manual here:

http://www.centuryheli.com/support/m...20book_web.pdf

These simple spacers take away all the vertical float in the spindle of the SPORT that made it super soft and stable in the hover, but allow it to not give as much negative inverted as you think you have set on the bench!!

IMHO, these spacers are a MUST ADD to the Sport for any 3D type of flying and they are a very inexpensive addition indeed.

This siimple and inexpensive change, makes a BIG difference in how the Pro will 3D compare to the Sport - almost like two different helis!

P.S. You can add as strong and as fast a collective servo you want, but if your throttle does not increase as it should when you load the rotor more, then your head speed will just bleed off that much faster.

[crimsonrain22]

Wow great right up and thank you. Looks like some new stuff to try. I have thought about adding some mix in now it makes alot more since. Time to play with some new setups. Thanks again

[RotaryBliss]

Another one soon to be born. waiting for the 611 to show up on backorder. And the weather to break well enough to even fly.. Living in Seattle has its drawbacks for heli pilots. I cant even fly my hawk.

[skunkworx]

One of these days I'll figure out how to turn out some good paint jobs, but for now, I'll just have to rely on pre-painted or go with solid colors. Oh boy! yet another hobb to embark on!

I couldn't agree more with the pointers already stated, but if you're having that many problems, I'd suggest upgrading to a Toki .40 + pipe. With that motor, you'll be running nearly the same power/weight ratio as most 50 size machines without having to get a motor, pipe, and frame change for the .50 upgrade kit. I can't say if this is 100% true, but it's what I've been told by the guys that have made the upgrade in my area. It's always to get more than one opinion though.

[RAV50]

That is good advise skunkworx,

I have flown the Hawk with the old OS32FS, the OS32SXH, the latest OS37FXH and the Toki 40.

The T40, by far, has the most power, but the needles must be set far differently then any of the OS's, followed by the OS37, which has a lot more power then the 32.

The Toki gives the Hawk the power to weight ratio of a light 50 on the Hyper 50 (Raven50 or T600N) and the OS37 gives it the power to weight like a heavier 50 (Evo, Rappy, Vibe) .... either one gives it a whole new personality

[Ray Fernandez]

My vote also goes to the Toki 40 and silent pipe combo.

My Hawk PRO runs within about the same power as my Raven. I just have fun with the PRO and don't worry too much on the fuel consumption.