MSH Protos 500 - to stretch or not to stretch?

[kjoer]

Think I'm gonna give mine some love again on Wednesday evenings, when the local club is flooded by people anyway.

Throw it in the car, drive to a nearby open field, easy to get six quick flights in :). No packing involved :).

[mike d1]

Different setups are preferred by different pilots. I understand and agree with both points made by kjoer and double ch. I'm a stretch lover too, its the best flying heli I've ever owed, no downsides to it for me whatsoever, but I don't fly near as good as either of you too yet so my opinion may change over time.

Mike

[Bladefx]

the reason I stretched mine was to run a lower HS and still have good tail authority. I never used 470 blades.
as mentioned above it's more about setup you are using.

[DoubleCH]

I have no problem with tail authority even with 470 blades and 20T tail gear and low HS with 13T. Before putting on 470 blades, I flew 430 blades with same setup except 2600rpm HS with 14T instead of 2400rpm with 13T, also no problem with tail authority.

Some discussion here triggered me to do some slow and close flying today. Not meant to try prove something but just felt like I should try fly like what I sometimes do with my Blade 300X.

My Stretched Protos Trying Some (Relatively) Precise Flying (5 min 39 sec)

[DoubleCH]

Some more stretch flying...

My Stretched Protos Blade Farts at 2300rpm HS (4 min 59 sec)

My Stretched Protos Doing Another Low-And-Close Flying (5 min 18 sec)

[senzafine]

I would like to stretch mine but the lack of blades puts me off. With the Goblin 500 being out there is a large selection of blades for it. Anyone running 500mm blades? looks like I need a boom that is 2.75 inches longer than stock and stretch boom is only about 2" longer. I realize that also requires a belt that is longer and it seems no one has come up with one. To my knowledge only the Goblin runs 470's correct? I just think there are more options for 500mm blades. I run pair of Synergy E5's one running 606mm mains @ 2025 head speed and one running 696mm blades @ 1250 head speed. I think a Protos running @ 1800 head speed with 500mm mains would be quite poppy.

[kayakboy69]

I run edge 473 FB blades at 2400ish Saab sells 470s they come with the streach kit

[mike d1]

Rjx also makes 470mm blades and are easy enough to find. I like the msh blades too, pretty snappy. The edge blades I also have but IMO seem kind of dead around mid stick. I am running the rjx blades now on my stretch and really like them, they seem to fall right in the middle of the edge and msh blades performance wise.

Mike

[kayakboy69]

Yea well I got mine for 38bux :-P and that made my wallet snappy lol i can't tell whts wht with baldes could be 2x4s

[DoubleCH]

I got my eBay CF 470mm blades for $20. As I said a few posts earlier they work so great I don't even bother looking for other blades. They are quite robust have survived 3 mechanical failure crashes including 30ft drop now have 400+ flights on them still going strong. Watch my flights with them in this thread and on my YouTube channel.

[J_Rig]

Hi all, I am new to Protos 500, but are trying to decide "stretch or no stretch"
What scares me with the stretch is the belt wear with smaller pinion, vs the simplicity not to install the bearing block.
I like how Logos fly; so first I thought about stretching, now I'm leaning towards just 430 blades. ( the shop owner will switch out the small blades and discount a stretch kit for me, just have to decide..)

I do like smooth low rpm , but also like "pop without bogging" like I see some videos of light helis.
Any voices for non stretch?

[kayakboy69]

Streach taxes internal bec ..in heavy loads or hot climent its is hard to finde 473mm blades and only have a cpl choices .
The pinion support can be tricky to adjust untill you get a system down ..
The good super floaty whisper quiet best suited for big air .. can run 3300/45c batteries by swapping canopy posts to the anti rotation holes .. to adjust pin tention remove upper pinion suport tension belt to your likening then install upper pinion support so it wont pull motor cockeyed

Now 425mm version ..
Stock kit now uses streached boom so the lower head wont strike tail longer tail gives improved tail response
425mm blades are no issue for international bec best suited for smack .. can jack the hs to 3k if your nerves allow

Eigther version will be a delight to own
Single belt and ubbet light = a new style auto .. not enough weight to drive the blades .. so keep fwd speed up .. its all good bro

ITS a PROTOS!

[DoubleCH]

Belt wear with smaller pinion and the 3rd motor shaft support are indeed a very valid concern. Good that my mods fixed those issues.

With stretch the right blades is key. With narrow-chord blades like the ones I bought on eBay for $20 are not super floaty, but light, responsive, smooth, yet gives good pop without bogging and don't tax tail authority, and don't tax BEC more than non-stretch blades because these blades I use have rearward CG that reduce servo load so much so I have no issue running micro-size TGY-S306G-HV servos for cyclic. Make sure to use MSH red hard 3D head dampers (stretch or not) and you won't get side-effect from the lighter disc loading in the wind, etc., not at normal 2400 HS, not at lower 2250 HS, and not even at super low 1800 HS.

That said, if you don't want the hassle with the accelerated belt/pinion wear and 3rd motor shaft support, non-stretch is worry-free. and still flies good (but not as good as my stretch, I'm bias obviously).

EDIT: Maybe I should put it this way. This Protos flies good non-stretch. It's nimble and has light disc-loading in a good way. With the right stretch blades you can get it even more nimble while of course gets even lighter disc-loading. It depends on what you're after. I'm the kind of guy who thinks if this piece of machinery is good at such and such I would make it even better in that department so it'll give the me the "holy cow, that's insane" feel.

[J_Rig]

Thanks kayakboy69 & DoubleCH MSH company should reward you for your passion

Yeah might just go 430. Also a carbon boom would be nice*; but the kit MSH51200 have the stretch boom already (source:http://www.msheli.com/en/MSHeli-Prot...r-informations so if I buy a CF boom I have to get the stretched to fit the kit' belt then?

*For changing temperatures


Again; thanks

[BHChieftain]

I've run it both ways, both are great. I like the stretch config a little better as I like really low headspeed (bird is whisper quiet), plus I get over 6min flight time. I used the double idler mod mentioned above with at 13T pinion and am at 63 flights and the pinion is still holding up-- hoping to make it to 100 flights...

I'm running SAB 465mm blades, they are really nice.

The 15T pinon on non-stretch will last a lot longer.

If you are not sure which way to go, leave it stock until you decide you want a change of pace. But don't let the reduced pinion wear and bearing support put you off-- it is just a bit more maintenance.

Chief

[constantinos.thrasyvoulou]

Originally Posted by DoubleCH

Mostly agree except I run 20T CNC tail gear with 13T motor pinion and even 3D'ing as low as 1800rpm HS (just for bragging) with 470 blades I have absolutely zero problem with tail authority. With my usual 2250/2400rpm HS 20T tail gear is fast enough for me tail holds solid and saves flight time (by not running higher than necessary tail speed). I can get 4-4.5min flight time with pretty hard flying with 20C 2650 packs. Just make sure there's at least 45R/40L degrees max pitch if you run 20T for stretch.

Hi

I am not completely satisfied with tail authority of my protos 500 stretched running at 2500 rpm. If you are using msh brain could you please let me know of your tail pid settings?

Regards
Constantinos Thrasyvoulou

[DoubleCH]

I'm running vbar. Regardless of FBL even stretch setup should have no problem with tail authority. I'm running 18T tail gear now only because my 20T wore out and I have 18T for spare. Even with 20T before, I had no tail authority issue at HS as low as 2200. Make sure your tail lever arm is super smooth no slop. Stock single-bearing sleeve design is often culprit. Lynx's lever am with top/bottom flanged sleeve halves prevents the problem but you can still make stock one work good. Test with servo horn or pushrod disconnected to feel any tiny notchiness. Make sure you have at least 40 degrees right rudder pitch and a tiny bit less on left rudder. If you have tail wag ONLY on high speed left-going funnels that force you to run too low tail gain then offset servo horn on servo towards right rudder side one notch or two and re-set up tail mechanics and tune.

[bahlis]

DoubleCH
Please , you can publish your Vbar Protos file?

[DoubleCH]

Sorry I will NOT post my vbar file. I hate it when people just blindly copy my swash/tail/governor parameters on their totally different mechanical setup and question why my parameters don't work for them. My tail setup is somwehat unorthodox. I like my servo horn setup to offset towards right rudder side at natural center to reduce mechanical advantage on the right rudder side while increasing on the left rudder side. This allows me to run aggressive tail gain, PIDs, etc. without tail wag or authority issue.

I'm still on the fence running 2 different servo horn hole distances from center in favor of different aspects of tail performance. I like running inner hole for high resolution and precision. At 140/140 tail limits I get just about 40 degrees right rudder pitch which is enough for the hardest super fast funnels and fast piro maneuvers with 20T gear and 2300rpm HS. OTOH, I also like the outer hole setting that I can run almost 45 degrees right rudder pitch and 40+ degrees left rudder pitch. Both allow even harder barking hard tail stops and faster tail pitch change (my fast Savox 1290MG is fast enough even with inner hole setting but it's always more fun to have even faster responding tail as long as it doesn't wag). Even with the outer hole setting I run high 75/60/15 PIDs and 76 tail gain. That's on the conservative side. With inner hole setting I could run 80 P-gain and mid-80 tail gain without tail wag on even the super fast funnels while yielding hard and crisp stops from CW piros (I max out piro rate at 121 with dual-rate on the TX set to 104).

[MHN777]

Originally Posted by DoubleCH

Sorry I will NOT post my vbar file. I hate it when people just blindly copy my swash/tail/governor parameters on their totally different mechanical setup and question why my parameters don't work for them. My tail setup is somwehat unorthodox. I like my servo horn setup to offset towards right rudder side at natural center to reduce mechanical advantage on the right rudder side while increasing on the left rudder side. This allows me to run aggressive tail gain, PIDs, etc. without tail wag or authority issue.

.

Re Reading your posts because of your kind intro and sharing about the affordable 470mm blades on ebay back then..

Regarding your tail setup... I disagree... I think you're doing it orthodox... lol.. seriously.. what you described is exactly how we used to set up heading hold gyros (futaba GY-240, GY-401) in the past.... we fly it in non-HH mode for a while/ just hover to find the rudder offset required... It was only after the introduction of Logitech HH gyro, where you just set the mechanical centre of the rudder arm without any offset.

So what you did is sensible... And it explains why you can get higher gain without wag!! Because your HH-gyro is operating closer to the true center of the rudder when the protos is in flight...

Lol... technology..