Crash Pictures from yesterday.+ going 810mm

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by terrabit

Well, it's not really an 800. No more than the Logo 600 SE is a 700. Can't use longer than 695's on it either. What the 700 stretch kit does is allow you to get a feel for what an 800 flys like. Personally, for $40 I think it's a deal. I bought the 700E because I wanted an E 700 that was purposes as such from conception.

Quite true... you will get a better handle tail with the conversion though.

Personally I wanted an 800+ fleet, and 15 months ago there was very little available to let you achieve that... But with a little creative thinking and a bit of machine shop magic, pretty much anything is with in reach

[flyinghigh450]

That suck's and sorry to see it ..

[f22warzone]

well at 40$ I don't have much to loose, had to buy new main and tail blades anyways so we will see about the clearance issue when they get here. + if they dont fit I have blades for my logo 800 then

only thing is it just does not add up, you know as if I am running 710 right now with 120mm tail blades I should be hitting the mains all the time, but I don't. Now if I go off and extend the blades 100mm and the boom 100mm it should be exactly like it is now except with 810mm blades?

Ah oh well will have to wait to Wednesday to measure every thing out, if not its off to the archery shop to go make me a Torque tube and then idk where to go to get a boom, maybe some conduit pipe?

Also I took apart the heli a little today, removed the tail servo, you cant move that thing at all It is locked up bad, so clearly the cause of the crash.

[terrabit]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

Quite true... you will get a better handle tail with the conversion though.

Would you say that the 700E's tail running 710's works better with the stretched boom kit? It would seem to lend it more authority. The extra 4" of material would only weigh a few grams. Logos also run longer than needed booms.

Originally Posted by f22warzone

only thing is it just does not add up, you know as if I am running 710 right now with 120mm tail blades I should be hitting the mains all the time, but I don't. Now if I go off and extend the blades 100mm and the boom 100mm it should be exactly like it is now except with 810mm blades?

Do you think I should be concerned with my 713/120 combo?

[f22warzone]

Originally Posted by terrabit

.....
Do you think I should be concerned with my 713/120 combo?

Have they hit yet? mine never hit with 713 and 120 for the little amount of time I flew it..... also I have the quick uk tail hub which is a little bit shorter then the align tail hub, that could give me thos extra 3mm that is necessary to clear.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by terrabit

Would you say that the 700E's tail running 710's works better with the stretched boom kit? It would seem to lend it more authority. The extra 4" of material would only weigh a few grams. Logos also run longer than needed booms.

That should be the case

Do you think I should be concerned with my 713/120 combo?

Couldn't say for a 700, I run longer booms and torque tubes( 925mm) so I have more than enough clearance on my 800's

[terrabit]

I use the QUK tail as well. I'll check it today.

A longer boom would give the tail more leverage as it is located farther from the axis. I mean it makes sense.

[ben-salasko]

Originally Posted by f22warzone

only thing is it just does not add up, you know as if I am running 710 right now with 120mm tail blades I should be hitting the mains all the time, but I don't. Now if I go off and extend the blades 100mm and the boom 100mm it should be exactly like it is now except with 810mm blades?

I'm planning on doing the same as you however I do see a major difference in potential blade strike. Given that the 700 and 800mm blades will deflect to roughly the same angle (actually the 800s will likely deflect more) on full cyclic the blade tips will be lower since they are longer. This could be the difference in a boom strike or tail rotor interference. You could easily calculate the difference in tip high if you knew what angle the blades deflect to at full cyclic.

[f22warzone]

calculate.... no reason to do that lol, just bend the crap out of an old blade to see if it will strike the rotor that's how I determined my clearance with 710+ 120 combo, took an old radix blade ( its brother struck the ground to hard and destroyed its self) Putting a pretty good 2" deflection on it ( quite a bit of force but no doubt acheavable) I was able to still maintain a slight gap between the tail blades.
but yes you are right the 800 mm blades will deflect more.

[Fatroll]

LOL 22' that's way too practical man!

Hey NightFly', I can have some CNC done here, or done for me...If someone else asked, I misse3d it, so appologize for the repeat; if not however, where di you pick up your 'stretched parts' (yeah yeah insert joke here), or were they all machined for you specifically? Or a combination of both? The numbers you are referencing are considerably more than those retail parts and billets I have seen. If the is some combo of custom, I'd be greatful for the reference board or print, and mats list (as well as what production components they most resemble).

I've been consorting with F22 on this very subject for the last several weeks, and was about to press CONFIRM ORDER on the new KDE motor (for custom 800), when he brought up concern regaurding running lower HS with such a power plant on the 800 platform...Since no one seems to have any 800 info posted regarding specifics out there, I would againm be greatful if you could give wiegh in on my descision, and suggest otherwise if this is a poor choice: I am assuming CC 160, but honestly, I could care less what I use. I'm really not concerned about price, as long as its not such that makes my eye twitch.

Regarding boom and tail: is it assumed or mandatory that the boom/main shaft be at a 90degree angle? Otherwise, cannot the boom intentionally be canted at even a 2 degree angle? Also, with your CNC experience, can the tail be modified with 2 45degree gears on either side, to have a push-pull config (tail rotor on either side of the torque tube?) which would permit a considerably smaller tail disk, with practically no aditional drag.

Anyway, whatever you guys can throw in regarding the basic 800 configurations you have would be appreciated

-troll

[nightflyr]

Fatroll;3130928]LOL 22' that's way too practical man!

Hey NightFly', I can have some CNC done here, or done for me...If someone else asked, I misse3d it, so appologize for the repeat; if not however, where di you pick up your 'stretched parts' (yeah yeah insert joke here), or were they all machined for you specifically? Or a combination of both? The numbers you are referencing are considerably more than those retail parts and billets I have seen. If the is some combo of custom, I'd be greatful for the reference board or print, and mats list (as well as what production components they most resemble).

The first attempt at 800 was done15 months before any parts were available on the market...
I had sectioned 2 ALIGN booms together to get the proper length and hand made the TT using 5/16 thick walled tubing and VELOCITY spline ends that mate to the ALIGN TT gears.

RJX 90 head assembly turning NHP 800 blades

This was the first go at it..

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zviRj37sx3c[/ame]


RJX later released there 800 machine, so now single piece booms were available with that I also made a new TT using stainless steel.

Though a bit larger in diameter and requiring a little modification in order to be adapted to
work with stock ALIGN configuration.
This was the results from generation II..















I've been consorting with F22 on this very subject for the last several weeks, and was about to press CONFIRM ORDER on the new KDE motor (for custom 800), when he brought up concern regaurding running lower HS with such a power plant on the 800 platform...Since no one seems to have any 800 info posted regarding specifics out there, I would againm be greatful if you could give wiegh in on my descision, and suggest otherwise if this is a poor choice: I am assuming CC 160, but honestly, I could care less what I use. I'm really not concerned about price, as long as its not such that makes my eye twitch.

Originally I setup using the HW120A-HV and KDE motor, but this combination wasn't optimum.
As you can see I opted for the CC160VH and the Scorpion 5020-450 ( with BOCA bearings) been quite pleased with this setup.

Regarding boom and tail: is it assumed or mandatory that the boom/main shaft be at a 90degree angle? Otherwise, cannot the boom intentionally be canted at even a 2 degree angle? Also, with your CNC experience, can the tail be modified with 2 45degree gears on either side, to have a push-pull config (tail rotor on either side of the torque tube?) which would permit a considerably smaller tail disk, with practically no aditional drag.

If your boom and TT are the correct size the standard configuration will work without going through all the trouble.
I did have a set of custom carbon fiber booms made with the idea of moving up to a
900 - 1000 class..... just not enough hours in the day.






The 3rd generation and final build is this..

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sIrkcI9kAg[/ame]

Along with a 700 E conversion to 800








anyway, whatever you guys can throw in regarding the basic 800 configurations you have would be appreciated

-troll

If there is anything else you need to know feel free to ask

[Fatroll]

I had assumed there would be more demand on the ESC...The divide (regarding cost...I am not sure of function or quality) from the CC 160, to say...HackerMaster Spin 170, or YGE...from what I can tell, as the best scalable (longevity, diverse, etc) and capable of 14s ESC's, so have really captured my eye. The HackerMaster inparticular interests me, but I can't find anything on the forums here regarding it. It seems to have some really nice features, but I lack confidence to go for it.
Ultimate goal is a heavy-lifter, or bigbird with long flight time...and as 22' can attest, im going retarded with all the reading, and he from all my quiestions lol.
Anyway, what are your considerations (say with the HM specifically) but generally 14s setup on ~800+.
With the motor, my primary interest is efficiancy (again, long flight times), but I have seen a few videos where some guys have had thier Headspeed remarkably low for the 800 (or maybe not so remarkable for an 800!), and the sound the rotor makes is very much akin to an actual Helo....that very deep thumping pulse bass.
Achieving the combo may take some tinkering, but I've all but staled on the ESC-Motor question lol.
If this line is out of the scope of the thread, or hum-drum for everyone else, please shoot a PM. I don't want to hi-jack my friends thread

And if anyone is building a new 700e right now, I am doing the same, and have a wealth of information I have aquired from F22, and a slow build process. I can probobly help someone out with general build questions regarding the stock/provided materials, and would certainly be happy to do so.

-Speacial thanks to F22, and NightFlyr. You guys have contributed some great info, caused me to spend a ton of money (j/k!) and invigorated my heli addiction

Regarding the top of the post with ESC's and going 14s to support 800's, how exactly is the battery configuaration addressed? If this route is chosen, would the ideal motor then change as well?

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by Fatroll

I had assumed there would be more demand on the ESC...The divide (regarding cost...I am not sure of function or quality) from the CC 160, to say...HackerMaster Spin 170, or YGE...from what I can tell, as the best scalable (longevity, diverse, etc) and capable of 14s ESC's, so have really captured my eye. The HackerMaster inparticular interests me, but I can't find anything on the forums here regarding it. It seems to have some really nice features, but I lack confidence to go for it.
Ultimate goal is a heavy-lifter, or bigbird with long flight time...and as 22' can attest, im going retarded with all the reading, and he from all my quiestions lol.
Anyway, what are your considerations (say with the HM specifically) but generally 14s setup on ~800+.
With the motor, my primary interest is efficiancy (again, long flight times), but I have seen a few videos where some guys have had thier Headspeed remarkably low for the 800 (or maybe not so remarkable for an 800!), and the sound the rotor makes is very much akin to an actual Helo....that very deep thumping pulse bass.
Achieving the combo may take some tinkering, but I've all but staled on the ESC-Motor question lol.
If this line is out of the scope of the thread, or hum-drum for everyone else, please shoot a PM. I don't want to hi-jack my friends thread

And if anyone is building a new 700e right now, I am doing the same, and have a wealth of information I have aquired from F22, and a slow build process. I can probobly help someone out with general build questions regarding the stock/provided materials, and would certainly be happy to do so.

-Speacial thanks to F22, and NightFlyr. You guys have contributed some great info, caused me to spend a ton of money (j/k!) and invigorated my heli addiction

Regarding the top of the post with ESC's and going 14s to support 800's, how exactly is the battery configuaration addressed? If this route is chosen, would the ideal motor then change as well?

AS to your ESC ..I have not seen it as yet so I can not comment.
Going 14S might increase your flight time, but fitting packs may prove to be an issue.

Concerning HS you'll be looking @ 1650 or less..As to the motor 400-450kV should do the trick,

Though just for giggles I did rig up a 600 stretched to 800 and using a Scorpion 4035-500 manage 15 minutes easy in the air..

Here is the same 12S power train in a 600... it's like the energizer bunny ..goes on & on

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFtcJB1jZlo[/ame]

[f22warzone]

great information here guys Cant wait to get mine up in the air, should have an 800 club

[nightflyr]

Feel free to ask Will James

[f22warzone]

ok running some calculations on the blade force at the hub
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30403

using this formula F = mBlade * (2*pi*n/60)^2 * rCG and that rCG = e + 0.5*R
(e being the distance from the center of rotation to where the blade is attached)
.5 is the assumption that CG is 1/2 of the blade of the total Radius well this isn't true so we will modify that.

my radix FAI blades ( heaviest blades I have ever used at 230g each and a cg of about 3/4 down the blade, sucker had huge lead weights in it at the tip for that extra stability) at 2200 rpm and rCG = 180/2(head) + .75*710 = 622.5mm so the equation
F= .230*(8447.39)*.6225 = 1209.455 Newton's or 271.8963 pounds of force per blade
Holly smokes, that’s a lot of force.

now let's go with the 810's (unfortunately I do not have CG on these yet as their not in my hands but because they weigh less and they are longer we can assume they do not have as much lead in the tips so the cg will be about 5/8 of the R), and just for giggles we will use 2200 rpm
F= .210*(8447.39)*.59625 = 1057.75 Newton's or 237.79 pounds of force
2000 rpm
F= .210*(6981.31)*.59625 = 874.14 Newton's or 196.514 pounds of force

ok one more comparison, the Scot gray 3d blades that I had, these were about 180g each with lead weights in the tips so again 5/8 of R but ran at 2250 rpm.
F= .182*(8835.729)*.53375 = 858 Newton's or 192 pounds of force.

So looks like running 810 mm blades at 2k rpm is almost no different then my current set up at 2250 rpm, and at 2200 rpm on the fai blades was amazing that it didn’t blow apart lol but I flew like that for quite a while, so 2200 rpm on an 810 is technically feasible lol.

these are rough estimates at the time being, will get home and measure the RT and radix blades to get a more accurate result.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by f22warzone

ok running some calculations on the blade force at the hub
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30403

using this formula F = mBlade * (2*pi*n/60)^2 * rCG and that rCG = e + 0.5*R
(e being the distance from the center of rotation to where the blade is attached)
.5 is the assumption that CG is 1/2 of the blade of the total Radius well this isn't true so we will modify that.

my radix FAI blades ( heaviest blades I have ever used at 230g each and a cg of about 3/4 down the blade, sucker had huge lead weights in it at the tip for that extra stability) at 2200 rpm and rCG = 180/2(head) + .75*710 = 622.5mm so the equation
F= .230*(8447.39)*.6225 = 1209.455 Newton's or 271.8963 pounds of force per blade
Holly smokes, that’s a lot of force.

now let's go with the 810's (unfortunately I do not have CG on these yet as their not in my hands but because they weigh less and they are longer we can assume they do not have as much lead in the tips so the cg will be about 5/8 of the R), and just for giggles we will use 2200 rpm
F= .210*(8447.39)*.59625 = 1057.75 Newton's or 237.79 pounds of force
2000 rpm
F= .210*(6981.31)*.59625 = 874.14 Newton's or 196.514 pounds of force

ok one more comparison, the Scot gray 3d blades that I had, these were about 180g each with lead weights in the tips so again 5/8 of R but ran at 2250 rpm.
F= .182*(8835.729)*.53375 = 858 Newton's or 192 pounds of force.

So looks like running 810 mm blades at 2k rpm is almost no different then my current set up at 2250 rpm, and at 2200 rpm on the fai blades was amazing that it didn’t blow apart lol but I flew like that for quite a while, so 2200 rpm on an 810 is technically feasible lol.

these are rough estimates at the time being, will get home and measure the RT and radix blades to get a more accurate result.

As I said earlier ..PLEASE make mention of me in your living will.

It may be feasible on paper..but I prefer dealing in the functional real world and all the imperfections that go with it..

Remember a minimal flaw in blade construction will turn your math to mud

[Chris_M]

I dont see much of a difference...an imperfection in any blade spinning at the speeds they do would cause a problem. A 713 at 2300rpm or 813 at 2000...i dont see why its that big of a deal as long as you have the grips and hardware to support it.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by cmar143

I dont see much of a difference...an imperfection in any blade spinning at the speeds they do would cause a problem. A 713 at 2300rpm or 813 at 2000...i dont see why its that big of a deal as long as you have the grips and hardware to support it.

I have been flying 800's for a while now, you REALLY, REALLY DO NOT want to do that..
But you are all free to do as you please,
But for safety reasons make sure there is NO ONE present...when you make your attempt.

Been there, seen it and done it 15 months ago... best of luck

[f22warzone]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

.....
Been there, seen it and done it 15 months ago... best of luck

video or explanation?