From tail-in to all 8s and funnels in 6 months

[wab223]

Excellent list of videos. This is a great thread.

Do you guys use mode 1 or 2 Tx in Germany?

[RogerRabit]

Different. Most use Mode 2.

[Sqwrly]

This is an awesome post. I decided to switch to the 2 finger method you listed the other day but haven't started on it yet. I started with thumbs, I've been flying for 5 months and I'm just starting nose up funnels. But my inverted orientations aren't perfect. I'm going to start from square 1 with this method on 2 fingers. I have a feeling I'll smash the upright hover. I have a few questions though. You're new to this as well apparently but maybe you'll have the answers...

1. Do you ever increase the speed of the piros? I didn't see much on that and 1 per minute seems pretty easy.

2. You say after 2 flawless sessions to go to lesson 4. What about lesson 2 and 3? I read that you say to mess with 2 and 3 in play time but that seems to go against the whole idea of "play" time.

3. You say hover continue daily alternating upright and inverted each day. What did you do when you did 5 sessions in a day? All upright on that day even if you don't crash or would you alternate every session instead of day?

4. More of a general question... That transmitter handling pdf says to put your stick tension at it's HIGHEST setting. Is that what people generally do?

5. What do people generally run for expo? I use 20% on my cyclic and 30-40 on my rudder. The transmitter handling pdf mentions 5-10-15 but from what I understand planks usually use less.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by NoValidTitle

...You're new to this as well apparently but maybe you'll have the answers...

1. Do you ever increase the speed of the piros? I didn't see much on that and 1 per minute seems pretty easy.

Yes.

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

...
If progressing to 3D, the main skills beyond this (Lesson 13) you will want to learn are prio moves. Just by being able to do these, you should be able to to piro circles and maybe piro 8s. Perfecting piro flying is a whole new topic (and my next adventure in RC heli flight).
...

So after "Transitional 8s including funnels".

Slow piros and fast piros exercise different things. The idea this the slow is to nail corrections automatically in all orientations (especially your weakest side, whichever that may be). Fast are to make tricks harder (cyclic stick stir for mode 2).

For fast piros, advanced FBL prio comp or FB washout occurs to help keep heli disc at the same attitude regardless of tail. For slow piro's you must do all the work.

Ideally the slow piros should not wander at all (less than 1/4 of a blade length). After practice, it' easy to keep them in side 2 meters, harder inside 20cm.

The overall goal is control, regardless of prio speed. I want, when doing piro moves to be able to do them EVERY time. In piro moves, I want my fingers will be making fluid corrections at between 4 to 8 points every rotation so fast that my concious brain can not possibly keep up. To do this I need all orientation corrections to be as natural as breathing. This is why SLOW piros, on the spot, are the key.

Originally Posted by NoValidTitle

2. You say after 2 flawless sessions to go to lesson 4. What about lesson 2 and 3? I read that you say to mess with 2 and 3 in play time but that seems to go against the whole idea of "play" time.

Lessons 2 and 3 are transitional. They help you reach 4, elements of these are suggested to be attempted during "play", but these are not to be "drilled" or recorded. If you complete 1, then really progress to 2, 3 and 4 (hard to do inverted hovers without flipping or rolling). Lazy 8's give feeling of achievement and real flying without compromising orientation work, nor risking heli when tried in real life.

I will revise wording to reflect this. Thank for bringing it to my attention.

edit: Added in lesson 1

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

..

• If for 2 successive session (one CW, one CCW), you have 0 crashes (Heli-X: and collective is under your control), start lesson 4 next session (You should already have been playing around with lessons 2 and 3. To do lesson 4, you will need some competence in lesson 3, work on it if you need to).

..

Originally Posted by NoValidTitle

3. You say hover continue daily alternating upright and inverted each day. What did you do when you did 5 sessions in a day? All upright on that day even if you don't crash or would you alternate every session instead of day?

Each session should be a different orientation than the one before. If you do 5 in a day, you would do 2 inverted (one CW, one CCW) and 2 upright (one CW, one CCW), and one more (in the next orientation and direction that follows sequence).

Originally Posted by NoValidTitle

4. More of a general question... That transmitter handling pdf says to put your stick tension at it's HIGHEST setting. Is that what people generally do?

As per guide, I have my stick spring tension reasonably strong so I can feel the resistance and need to push against it. This helps makes my results predictable and consistent. I can imaging a lot never changing from factory default (which is some, but not a lot).

Originally Posted by NoValidTitle

5. What do people generally run for expo? I use 20% on my cyclic and 30-40 on my rudder. The transmitter handling pdf mentions 5-10-15 but from what I understand planks usually use less.

Expo is personal preference. Use little enough to not feel "disconnected", and not too much that it is too "twitchy". Every concious movement should have an observable predictable result. I use 100/20 for cyclics and rudder. Gives me the right feel.

Thank you for the questions. I hope this helps.

[clicky]

Originally Posted by NoValidTitle

1. Do you ever increase the speed of the piros? I didn't see much on that and 1 per minute seems pretty easy.

I think you've got it wrong. Slow pirouettes are much harder than fast ones (as Archmage said). It is almost increasing in hardness the slower the pirouette is (to certain point). With certain speed you can rely on correcting helicopter in one orientation only (tail in) and let it spin through full revolution until you can chance to correct it again. With slow pirouette - you have to control it and correct it at all orientations. Somewhere in between - you can correct helicopter in only a few - mostly tail in and nose in.

Similarly it goes to be much harder after you go after particular speed where your reactions must be really fast. But, this exercise is going to teach you all the muscle memory you need and after getting really good at all orientations at really slow pirouette (10+ seconds per revolution) you'll be able to slowly increase the speed.

What I noticed was that when I started learning really slow pirouettes and got hang of correcting it through the whole revolution, I suddenly become unable to speed it up (again) to where I was before - when I was correcting it only in a few orientations. Only over time and practice I managed to (re)gain the speed (again) and suppress it.

And there's another criteria about (slow and otherwise) pirouettes. If you think slow - one revolution per minute is easy - set your helicopter to as low HS as you feel comfortable and extend your flight - and check how long you can fly constantly pirouetting it. I've seen people who can pirouette it at some, not that slow speed, but they can do it only for relatively short period of time - while helicopter is stationary and doesn't require much correction (even they can fly really precisely and finely otherwise).

[Sqwrly]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

Thank you for the questions. I hope this helps.

It does. Thanks for the work you put into this.

Originally Posted by clicky

I think you've got it wrong. Slow pirouettes are much harder than fast ones (as Archmage said). It is almost increasing in hardness the slower the pirouette is (to certain point). With certain speed you can rely on correcting helicopter in one orientation only (tail in) and let it spin through full revolution until you can chance to correct it again. With slow pirouette - you have to control it and correct it at all orientations. Somewhere in between - you can correct helicopter in only a few - mostly tail in and nose in.

Similarly it goes to be much harder after you go after particular speed where your reactions must be really fast. But, this exercise is going to teach you all the muscle memory you need and after getting really good at all orientations at really slow pirouette (10+ seconds per revolution) you'll be able to slowly increase the speed.

What I noticed was that when I started learning really slow pirouettes and got hang of correcting it through the whole revolution, I suddenly become unable to speed it up (again) to where I was before - when I was correcting it only in a few orientations. Only over time and practice I managed to (re)gain the speed (again) and suppress it.

And there's another criteria about (slow and otherwise) pirouettes. If you think slow - one revolution per minute is easy - set your helicopter to as low HS as you feel comfortable and extend your flight - and check how long you can fly constantly pirouetting it. I've seen people who can pirouette it at some, not that slow speed, but they can do it only for relatively short period of time - while helicopter is stationary and doesn't require much correction (even they can fly really precisely and finely otherwise).

Maybe because I practiced a lot of piro hovering before it seems easier to me. I would force a 10 secondish piro and force myself to continually correct it in all orientations, not just wait for tail in. So 1 piro per minute just seems painfully slow. That being said I'm going to switch from thumbs to 2 finger and start with 1 minute piros. I spent 5 minutes or so just playing around with the 2 finger and it doesn't seem like a crazy hard transition since it still involves thumbs on top, I'm just adding a finger to support it. I was running my stick tension tighter than stock before but I just cracked it all the way so well see how that goes.

[ChasingTail]

First congrats for the sticky! Well done.

Regarding the training module in RF 6.5.....adjusting the physics speed in the main program will not slow down the training module speed according to RF 6.5 support team. It runs at 100%.

[neverland]

in addition to constant piro control, you can also learn to stop precisely at each 90 degree point in turn in both directions. stopping at each point forces you to be in complete control at all points (no drifting on to your favorite angle to correct it) and also great for precise tail control. it looks good when you can precisely snap the tail into each 90 degree angle.

what i also do alot on the sim is different types of rising and falling pirouetting. one type is constantly pirouetting while ascending /descending. i try to practice this upright and inverted, and usually either change direction at the top, so its like a screw motion, or transition with half piro flip (normal or reverse!) at top or bottom.

another good piro exercise you can do is ascend, say nose in, then turn 90 degrees at the top and descend side in, rotate 90 degrees again to tail in at the bottom, ascend, and so on. and after a few times, switch piro direction!

i find these exercises great for teaching precise control of collective while pirouetting in different ways.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by ChasingTail

First congrats for the sticky! Well done.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by ChasingTail

Regarding the training module in RF 6.5.....adjusting the physics speed in the main program will not slow down the training module speed according to RF 6.5 support team. It runs at 100%.

If you can post (or PM me) how to slow down RF 6.5 training module, I will add it to the original post.

I have not got RF 6.5 yet. The information on slowing RF in the original was taken from the manual, not experience with the product. I am planning on getting it near future, just so I can fly with some of the awesome HFers here. It will be cheaper than international travel

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by neverland

in addition to constant piro control, you can also learn to stop precisely at each 90 degree point in turn in both directions. stopping at each point forces you to be in complete control at all points (no drifting on to your favorite angle to correct it) and also great for precise tail control. it looks good when you can precisely snap the tail into each 90 degree angle.

what i also do alot on the sim is different types of rising and falling pirouetting. one type is constantly pirouetting while ascending /descending. i try to practice this upright and inverted, and usually either change direction at the top, so its like a screw motion, or transition with half piro flip (normal or reverse!) at top or bottom.

another good piro exercise you can do is ascend, say nose in, then turn 90 degrees at the top and descend side in, rotate 90 degrees again to tail in at the bottom, ascend, and so on. and after a few times, switch piro direction!

i find these exercises great for teaching precise control of collective while pirouetting in different ways.

+1. Great suggestions. "bring on play time"

The 8 point piros and compass circle are for rudder control. Perfect these and snapping to orientations should be simple (or at worst easy ).

[rdlohr]

Great writeup. Thanks for taking the time to put this together!

Rick

[MHN777]

Thanks for this awesome thread! I'm gonna use Clearview!!

[OBwan]

How do you burn off all that extra "IQ"?

Brilliant!!! - THANKS!

[clicky]

Originally Posted by neverland

in addition to constant piro control, you can also learn to stop precisely at each 90 degree point in turn in both directions. stopping at each point forces you to be in complete control at all points (no drifting on to your favorite angle to correct it) and also great for precise tail control. it looks good when you can precisely snap the tail into each 90 degree angle.

Ha! That is actually an answer to why so slow piro! Pirouetting it at painfully slow speed is actually very, very close to stopping at some (potentially individually awkward) positions. Pirouetting at that speed almost seems like rotating heli for small degree, stopping and repeating the move (correcting all way through)

Originally Posted by neverland

what i also do alot on the sim is different types of rising and falling pirouetting. one type is constantly pirouetting while ascending /descending. i try to practice this upright and inverted, and usually either change direction at the top, so its like a screw motion, or transition with half piro flip (normal or reverse!) at top or bottom.

Actually that is really good point! I might start doing that practice! I've seen so many good flyers showing off with very precise pirouetting long (as in altitude) pitch pumps...

Originally Posted by neverland

another good piro exercise you can do is ascend, say nose in, then turn 90 degrees at the top and descend side in, rotate 90 degrees again to tail in at the bottom, ascend, and so on. and after a few times, switch piro direction!

i find these exercises great for teaching precise control of collective while pirouetting in different ways.

Hm. That's really good idea for learning tool - as slow, stationary pirouettes are. Practically - I am after those. Slow pirouettes teach you loads of things at once. Finding other moves that can increase confidence and skills (like slow pirouettes are doing) would be great!

One of the things I started thinking of is constant flipping (front or back flips) in all orientations. Similar goes with rolls (both directions).

[RogerRabit]

If you are bored at the pirouettes you can put a bit more challenge into it.

put a stick in the bottom and then do the piro staying exact with one part of the heli at the top of the stick.
e.g. rotate exactly arround the tip of the left skid maintaining a constant height some inches from the stick.
You will not believe how more difficult it is arround a real object than just judging a imaginary point and go arround that.

The real object is awful difficult...

[gitbse]

I do my best to focus on rotating the heli around the main shaft, rather than focus on a point on the ground. It's incredibly hard to keep the heli turning directly around the shaft perfectly. Especially at a slow Piro, because it gets much more difficult the slower you Piro.

[HelisRock]

Archmage,

Congrats on the AWESOME WORK, I'm sure this will be just as often referenced as RADD's school of rotary flight was. It has the same emphasis toward discipline on fundamentals and dedication achieves fairly quick results.

It certainly deserves its sticky status.

Some will complete the entire program in 6 months, others in 6 years (when I saw the length, I thought it would take me 6 months to read!). And many more will modify and use parts to suite their particular learning style. It's all about the individual journey. You've laid out a great program, and proved it can deliver stunning results. Many newbies (and not so newbies) will significantly benefit from your work. This is an awesome contribution that a lot of Freaks will appreciate.

I'm patiently waiting to see your next thread: Smack 3D in 6 months...

[jharkin]

This is just awesome Archmage... With a house full of toddlers my weekend field time is at a premium but i can spare lots of evening time, so Im going to try and follow this program on the sim to make the most of the little field time I do get.

I was getting halfway decent with nose in hovers already so lesson 1 only took a week or so to graduate but it feels like Lesson 4 might take a year by itself. You need a category for 70 crashes in 10 minutes

[Planeur]

Great post. As a newbie and with the push to use simulators a primer on setting up the various sims for training would be really helpful. Things like recommended helis and the settings for those helis in the sim.

Thanks,
Hugh

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Planeur

... a primer on setting up the various sims for training would be really helpful...

Looks like I have a next project.

I can do ones for Heli-X, Phoenix 4, ClearView and (*gasp*) FMS (RF will be a little while yet). It will take a few days.