Protos 500 hard tail wag

[mike d1]

Harry r, I posted this same info over in your other tail wag thread, but I guess ill post it here too. How may flights does the tail slider have on it? Just because it slides smooth on the bench does not mean its sliding smoothly under load. The tail servo is the hardest working servo on any heli. Have you ever spun the heli up on the bench sans blades and tail control rod then tried to move the slider/slider arm with your fingers? It takes much more force then you would think to hold just the empty grip in any position other then dead center. Now imagine the tail under normal flight conditions, the tail servo has to make thousands of adjustments per flight constantly fighting main rotor torque, wind, pilot input,etc just to keep the helis tail in position where you want it..Over time the slider bushing wears from the constant side load on it and will start bind under load because of slop induced wear causing wag. Also the stock plastic tail slider arm can twist under load causing binding, replace it with the aluminum lynx one. All the stuff you replaced has very little to do with wag, the slider and arm should have been the first pieces replaced.

Mike

[Soccerjay]

Originally Posted by mike d1

Harry r, I posted this same info over in your other tail wag thread, but I guess ill post it here too. How may flights does the tail slider have on it? Just because it slides smooth on the bench does not mean its sliding smoothly under load. The tail servo is the hardest working servo on any heli. Have you ever spun the heli up on the bench sans blades and tail control rod then tried to move the slider/slider arm with your fingers? It takes much more force then you would think to hold just the empty grip in any position other then dead center. Now imagine the tail under normal flight conditions, the tail servo has to make thousands of adjustments per flight constantly fighting main rotor torque, wind, pilot input,etc just to keep the helis tail in position where you want it..Over time the slider bushing wears from the constant side load on it and will start bind under load because of slop induced wear causing wag. Also the stock plastic tail slider arm can twist under load causing binding, replace it with the aluminum lynx one. All the stuff you replaced has very little to do with wag, the slider and arm should have been the first pieces replaced.

Mike

But how could that be an issue on a heli only flown a handful of times? Unless its from sitting around and it went bad.....I'm talking about mine

[HarryR]

Originally Posted by mike d1

Harry r, I posted this same info over in your other tail wag thread, but I guess ill post it here too. How may flights does the tail slider have on it? Just because it slides smooth on the bench does not mean its sliding smoothly under load. The tail servo is the hardest working servo on any heli. Have you ever spun the heli up on the bench sans blades and tail control rod then tried to move the slider/slider arm with your fingers? It takes much more force then you would think to hold just the empty grip in any position other then dead center. Now imagine the tail under normal flight conditions, the tail servo has to make thousands of adjustments per flight constantly fighting main rotor torque, wind, pilot input,etc just to keep the helis tail in position where you want it..Over time the slider bushing wears from the constant side load on it and will start bind under load because of slop induced wear causing wag. Also the stock plastic tail slider arm can twist under load causing binding, replace it with the aluminum lynx one. All the stuff you replaced has very little to do with wag, the slider and arm should have been the first pieces replaced.

Mike

Mike, I am going to replace that slider too. I happen to have an OEM laying around so I can try it quickly. And I will report back.. Again...thanks for reminding me...

As you can see. I went hunting for Protos parts ar Amain but I could not find a Lynx SLider for the 500 , they do have a few for the MinI protos... Some good deals to be gotten there... They are getting out of the MSH business so it seems.

4 x Scorpion Battery Lock Strap Set (3) (Large) (SCP-LKSTRAP) = $23.96
1 x MS Heli Thrust Bearing Tail Spindle (MSH51331) = $8.49
1 x MS Heli 3x6x2.5mm Ball Bearing (MSH51068) = $3.79
1 x MS Heli Gorilla Gear Low Profile Landing Skids (Yellow) (MSH51306) = $10.75
1 x Lynx Heli Protos 500 STD Profile Fiberglass Canopy (Scheme 05 - Red/Green) (LYXP500-015) = $31.99
1 x MS Heli 6x10x2.5mm Ball Bearing (MSH51073) = $3.99
1 x MS Heli 8x16x5mm Ball Bearing (MSH51067) = $4.99
1 x MS Heli Mixers (MSH51040) = $9.49
1 x MS Heli Washout Control Arm (MSH51027) = $8.75
1 x Racers Edge 4" Assorted Color Zip Tie Wraps (30) (RCE5604M) = $2.89
1 x MS Heli Washout Hub (MSH51021) = $6.29
1 x MS Heli Main Bearing Blocks w/Servo Adapters (Plastic Frame) (MSH51082) = $5.99


Cheers

[HarryR]

I learned a lesson . When guys on the forum tell you that the tail movements have to be SMOOTH, that means they have figured out, most likely because of their personal experience, that this is an important item.
Before doing anything else, I decided to look again at all the moving parts, checked and compared with my other Protos and noticed that the tail servo's movement needed considerably more force to move. I did some more checking and removed the link from the servo ball and the movement of the servo rod was soo much easier. Darn.! I started checking and found that the BALL was the wrong size!! Slightly bigger but just enough to BIND slightly. So I replaced that ball and what do you know. The WAG is GONE!!! Completely! Yeah!!

[mike d1]

Originally Posted by Soccerjay

But how could that be an issue on a heli only flown a handful of times? Unless its from sitting around and it went bad.....I'm talking about mine

After re reading this thread I would still say your problem is slight or severe binding somewhere. Be very, very meticulous on inspecting everything on the whole tail assembly. I do not own any FB helis and have no experience with the kind of gyro you have, but the kicking sounds like the gyro is over compensating for some kind of binding. This lynx slider arm
http://www.msh-direct.com/products/p...ver-black.html
is money well spent.

Just because parts are new does not mean they are machined right or fit together well. On both my Hirobo 450 and Trex 600 brand new tail pitch assembly's were binding on new tail shafts out toward the ends of the throw. Both models I ended up having to polish the tail shafts and the inside of the sliders to get them to slide smoothly over 100% the sliders travel.

Also if you continue to get kicking with the tail assembly all 100% mechanically I would move the servo ball out another hole and see what happens.


Mike

[crickr1]

Originally Posted by HarryR

I learned a lesson . When guys on the forum tell you that the tail movements have to be SMOOTH, that means they have figured out, most likely because of their personal experience, that this is an important item.
Before doing anything else, I decided to look again at all the moving parts, checked and compared with my other Protos and noticed that the tail servo's movement needed considerably more force to move. I did some more checking and removed the link from the servo ball and the movement of the servo rod was soo much easier. Darn.! I started checking and found that the BALL was the wrong size!! Slightly bigger but just enough to BIND slightly. So I replaced that ball and what do you know. The WAG is GONE!!! Completely! Yeah!!

Glad it is sorted out The Protos uses different size link, ever so slightly, they also sell a special ball sizer tool

[Soccerjay]

Ok need some help, i took apart the tail, cleaned it (lots of grit!!!) and now the slider is butter smooth, the arm is absolutely no effort to move it but when i put them together the assembly seems to bind at the ends (no blade grips attached) more so near the outside of the tail shaft towards where blades would be.....it only happens when together and is really weird.....any ideas? I used my dremel to sand a bit inside where the slider arm sits but that made little difference but helped a bit....im gonna try smoothing out the sanding and see if it helps....

[Soccerjay]

And even weirder, when the whole tail is assembled its easy to move the slider with no notchiness or resistance

Dammit, taking the gain down helps, so far i got it down to 30 and it holds well in pitch pumps but wags a bit with rudder, even slow rudder it bounces back a bit, but i set it down a bit too hard and the tail blade scraped causing the slider arm (tiny part the blade grip link connects to) snapped on one side and my blades got f*ed up....I'm ready to take a hammer to this thing

[banditpowdercoat]

Like prev stated, make sure no slop. And things move smooth. Which you have by what I read. How far out is your ball on the servo arm? To far out looses resolution. Try moving in. Also, I had twitch/wag when I had a servo similar to yours. Put a fullsize, DS620 Align on mine and she holds solid

[Soccerjay]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

Like prev stated, make sure no slop. And things move smooth. Which you have by what I read. How far out is your ball on the servo arm? To far out looses resolution. Try moving in. Also, I had twitch/wag when I had a servo similar to yours. Put a fullsize, DS620 Align on mine and she holds solid

Its a wheel and at the max right now at 10mm, not sure if thats too short or not

[banditpowdercoat]

10mm is about right. Can you move it in a bit and test? will need to increase gain a little with it in. Also, make sire the tail cntrol rod isnt rubbing on the fin mount brace. Can snip the loop of the brace off no problem. Actually, most do snip it

[Soccerjay]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

10mm is about right. Can you move it in a bit and test? will need to increase gain a little with it in. Also, make sire the tail cntrol rod isnt rubbing on the fin mount brace. Can snip the loop of the brace off no problem. Actually, most do snip it

I'll try that, but i think I'll slap the full size on for comfort,with the big one what distance is recommended? Or optimal

I did snip it off just before that last test flight, so it was a non-issue, but gives me some piece of mind eliminating all possibilities

[banditpowdercoat]

I belive 10mm is suggested. But it varies with servo resolution, speed, Gyro gain etc. Farther out, tail will move faster, but have less accuracy and need less gyro gain. Tail wag is usually from to much gain, either mechanical, or TX. But also a sticky tail can do it. But yours smooth you say. Have you pulled hard on tail blades and felt of there any notchieness under load on the bearings? What is smooth on bench can have issues spinning at 8000 rpm with the blade load on it