So how many ICE2 ESCs have burnt up since the recall?

[band]

Originally Posted by lucien

And as I told you repeatedly in our PM exchange:
- I couldn't seem to get you to understand that _power_ is the operative variable here and apparently you still don't. As long as the _power dissipation_ demands meet the capability of the ESC, (and the voltages involved otherwise don't exceed any limits as they don't here), you're fine. The ESC will be able to handle it. Think about it - why do our ESC's work _at all_ at partial throttle settings without self-destructing?
- The power levels involved in my setup at these headspeeds were, and still are, well within the power limits of the ICE2 120HV, regardless of the throttle setting.
- The original ICE HV controllers had a _design_ problem that was causing the fires. It was definitely _not_ setup problems - this has been made abundantly clear here and elsewhere throughout the history of this whole thing. True, high resistance systems do result in higher ripple voltages, but that wasn't the problem with the original ICE HV's and the failures.
- All BL ESC's are susceptible to problems from excessive ripple, not just the ICE controllers.

This is why I'm not having trouble with my ICE2 120HV setup as it is, and why I likely will continue not to.

LS

LOL, I will not discuss it further with you as you yourself have admitted your setup is wrong, but as you put it "I don't care, I'm mostly nitro anyway". You should stick to the N's then all you have to worry about is running your motor too lean...

[Justin Stuart]

I assume that when the Jives fail, they would shoot flames out too if it were not for the rubber case.

Has anyone tried to dip their Castle Creations ESC into some of the rubberized coating that you use on tool handles? Might be a cheap way to prevent a catastrophic failure where the flames torch the battery and everything else.

[dunkonu23]

I don't know if anyone interested in this anymore, but here's what could be the last update to the High Voltage ESC failure list. Please note that I've added a cover page with some information about the list and its purpose.

Scott

[McCollister911]

Well thanks for ur time Scott. I can't say I blame u. Thanks tho. I appreciate it

[WBFAir]

Originally Posted by dunkonu23

I don't know if anyone interested in this anymore, but here's what could be the last update to the High Voltage ESC failure list. Please note that I've added a cover page with some information about the list and its purpose.

Scott

Just my opinion, almost everything is fine, only thing I would add is to the statement that all this list proves is that it is very difficult to build a reliable high voltage ESC is just in your own personal opinion.

Take a walk over to any of the other much smaller failed ESC brand sections and ask them if they feel those manufactures have a hard time building them and I don't think you will find many that would agree with your opinion much even when looking at your list or even more so that your list proves this at all.

Saying it proves this is just as much as saying its a fact and its not a fact or something that has been proven because of your list as you state it, its just your own personal opinion. Which for sure you alone are certainly entitled to have, but it is just that, your one lone opinion.

[dunkonu23]

The list stays as is.

[WBFAir]

Originally Posted by dunkonu23

The list stays as is.

Well as playing the hidden agenda game is what your up to Scott, I can see how that would actually need to be the case.

Enjoy causing all the damage your games will inflict on others Scott, hope its worth all your getting for it.

[dunkonu23]

I asked you to NEVER post ANYTHING to me again. You have insulted me. You have thrown out unfounded, slanderous accusations aimed at me. Yet...

I'll tell you what. You hop in your car June 1st and drive to the MidAmerica Fun Fly in Detroit and I'll pay your registration (if you produce receipts, I'll pay for your gas), invite you to pit with me, and I'll show you first hand that I'm not the person you think I am. I promise you I will treat you with more respect than you have EVER shown me. I also promise you'll come away with a different opinion.

That's the best I can do by you. If that's not good enough, grant me the common courtesy of leaving me alone.

Scott

[WBFAir]

Originally Posted by dunkonu23

I asked you to NEVER post ANYTHING to me again. You have insulted me. You have thrown out unfounded, slanderous accusations aimed at me. Yet...

I'll tell you what. You hop in your car June 1st and drive to the MidAmerica Fun Fly in Detroit and I'll pay your registration (if you produce receipts, I'll pay for your gas), invite you to pit with me, and I'll show you first hand that I'm not the person you think I am. I promise you I will treat you with more respect than you have EVER shown me. I also promise you'll come away with a different opinion.

That's the best I can do by you. If that's not good enough, grant me the common courtesy of leaving me alone.

Scott

Well I wouldn't get all excited about anything like that happening Scott because its not going to. Believe it or not, I actually have so many other things to do with my time I barely have the time to write these posts.

Personally, I'm not doing any of this because I care about what kind of person you are or not. And the revelations of what kind of person you are and why you are doing it are just to go to the points.

But what I do care about is false information being spread around to others who have no idea it is false because its being wrapped up in some kind of ....oh this is just a simple cataloging of information, its not to help Castle at all.

So you play it like that but then you do little things in it like when Castle finally has been shown to have more ESC's burning then anyone else, then switch to a new tactic of then putting things in it like a total number shown that have been produced which again, you have no idea in any way that this is at all a factual amount but really saying it is by then showing it and making the comment how this list shows that its proof that all high voltage ESC's are hard to build and that is true because look at my numbers.

Its simple Scott, is just so simple to see that while you are trying to give the impression that this is just a simple cataloged list of things that in truth, all you are trying to do is give something out to people that with all the other stuff you do that the only ultimate conclusion will be is that Castle is just as good as any ESC out there and despite all the reports of all the damage they have done that you shouldn't care one bit about that as my list is the proof to show what I am saying is true and thus you should go out and buy one.

All in all Scott this is what you are trying to do as if you really were interesting in this list being what you clam it to be, you wouldn't be getting so bent out of shape about the criticism it is getting.

Truthfully...if it was as you are claiming it to be, you would welcome any ideas on how to be sure it is that as much as it can be, but you are clearing getting severally agitated at these all because you know these changes will not help to have it be what you are actually wanting it to be one bit. So with stuff like this is just some of the proof of that, and I don't need to come to a show to see it.


And lastly Scott, I don't post to anything else you do as all that other stuff is just like what everyone does an totally what this board is all for which is, I have an opinion, you have an opinion. Or I know this to be true because I have had it happened to me or seen it with my own eyes or can actually can confirm it in a 100% irrefutable way.

But if you want to take things to the next step and go to the public place of doing what you are doing with this list of taking things you don't have proof off, and saying that they are and making continued public lists that you are going to be constantly distributing for anyone to download and read, well that's taking things to another level and the opinion of it is just simply public domain then.

Can't just only get feed back from only the ones you want to hear from and only get the feedback you want to hear then Scott and then tell the ones you don't get what you want from not to say anything about it.

You open the door here with such a public situation of stuff like this so just gonna have to take the good with the bad.

[Cailid]

Why don't you two just put each on ignore.

[gadawg58]

What happened to Fun, Learning, Friendship, and Mutual Respect? I think Scott has done a good job of trying to track numbers of failed units. I've read all these posts and don't feel like there is any agenda at all. Its informational ... nothing more and nothing less. WBFAir ... your post is not what this forum is all about and I for one would love to see you post an apology as I think one is owed. IMHO you are way out of line!

[WBFAir]

All I'll say is, this is something that can be gone over for a million years so won't say much more other then.....if someone really wants to put out documentation like a list like this that they are claiming is a completely impartial and unbias just down and dirty list of what failed ESC's they have found, then do just that.

No opinions, no statements that something is a fact or is proof when that is based on your opinion, no inclusion of information that is not 100% known to be true such as posted production numbers, no mentioning of ratios based on these unproven numbers. And especially no putting all that in and then going around having arguments like was done to another poster a few weeks ago with saying things like and with quite little act of friendship and mutual respect btw, my list is the definitive proof I'm right and your wrong.

Simply just do what it is that you are saying it is you are doing and just put in the found info of the failed ESC's you have found, offer no conclusions or opinions in any way on any of it either in it or out of it and that's all.

Heck this way you don't even need any disclaimers as there is nothing to disclaim.

Then this way people can just read what is there and make up their own minds as to what they want to do.

Or do option B and produce something that while seems like the above, is just meant to steer people opinions to what you want them to be with little gimmicks and continual tweaking of things to sway them to see things that way.

So do what ever, the choice is yours. But just don't be surprised when you chose option B and especially when option B has the potential for so much damage to others, that someone isn't going to come along and end up challenging you on these things.


Later.

[felborn]

Originally Posted by gadawg58

What happened to Fun, Learning, Friendship, and Mutual Respect? I think Scott has done a good job of trying to track numbers of failed units. I've read all these posts and don't feel like there is any agenda at all. Its informational ... nothing more and nothing less. WBFAir ... your post is not what this forum is all about and I for one would love to see you post an apology as I think one is owed. IMHO you are way out of line!

Agreed, Scott tries to be helpfull and this happens... Always some idiot to ruin it for others

[Mercuriell]

Great job Scott, as far as I can see you have done your best to be impartial and factual and nearly 12000 views of this thread clearly demonstrate many others appreciate the information. I entirely agree with your sentiment that producing a fireproof ESC is beyond some of the brightest and best.

It would seem that it is WBFAir that holds the "lone opinion" in this exploration.

[JasonA]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

I entirely agree with your sentiment that producing a fireproof ESC is beyond some of the brightest and best.

I don't think many can agree on this. It's a quality control and design issue on Castle's part. Personally, and knowing electronic design and seeing one of their "fresh, unopened" 120HV2's out of the box from my 700v2 kit, I saw the small specs of solder and almost NO HEAT SINK COMPOUND AT ALL!!! (and black compound at that). If you are in the biz, you know which brand I'm talking about..


Jenny at Castle replaced my unit with a bench tested and "guaranteed" unit.. but I know who produces the good stuff..



Funny thing.. when the new unit came in (now sold to a member on here).. it had WHITE HS-compound on it The proper stuff!!


But again.. A Castle 120hv2 has what??? 5 FET's less then a Kontronics 80hv


Ever see what a Kontronics 80hv looks like under its cooling plate that DOES NOT REQUIRE A HEAT SINK???





And building HV ESC's is "difficult" huh?? Don't see a failure list really over there or on the YGE forums (yes, some problems here and there but no FLAMES)


And the BEC is legendary. I'm all for "American Made" but this is just crap that they are putting out.. more of a quality control and design issue.



Kinda like 3GX vs. Vbar...

[Mercuriell]

It's the emotive responses as above that Scott's data seeks to get away from. This clearly shows ALL HV ESC have their failure rate - sure the JIve almost never catches fire but it too dies and looks after itself rather too well.

Belatedly CC have addressed the HV issues and continue to do so and prolonged bashing of them serves no useful purpose for the hobby as a whole. The issues you refer to above are of assembly QM and not related to the design. Switching of high DC voltages at 100s of amps in a small lightweight unit continues to befuddle all the makes and although progress is being made I don't think we're there yet.

[WBFAir]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

It's the emotive responses as above that Scott's data seeks to get away from. This clearly shows ALL HV ESC have their failure rate - sure the JIve almost never catches fire but it too dies and looks after itself rather too well.

Belatedly CC have addressed the HV issues and continue to do so and prolonged bashing of them serves no useful purpose for the hobby as a whole. The issues you refer to above are of assembly QM and not related to the design. Switching of high DC voltages at 100s of amps in a small lightweight unit continues to befuddle all the makes and although progress is being made I don't think we're there yet.

As far as this list goes.

First of all I can tell you that some time last year before Scott was putting out these lists, I personally got in several argument posts with him over the Castle burning ESC topic.

As you would expect, these contained all the typical pro stuff from him of trying to protect Castle and defend them like they were his very last breath for what they were doing that you normally saw a lot of from some of the most hardest core fan boys did who staked their claims to protect Castle no matter what they do.

So for sure I can say that he is defiantly hands down one of these very pro and very looking to do "anything" he can do to support Castle types by all the accounts I have seen.

And to which I might even more show evidence of his elegance where if you look at his RCGroups profile here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=243205 you will see that for all of his at this point 87 postings, 73.56% of them have been in the Castle Creations section that while I haven't read everyone, none of the many I read were ever saying anything strong against or too Castle with more often then not, things being said very very much to support them.

So what ever he is, clearly he is not a person of complete independence of thought or favor or impartial interests with how things go with Castle.

Clearly I am not saying I'm a person who is not on the opposite side of the fence to a degree, but at least I'm not trying to say I'm not and especially am not producing hidden agenda list reports to clandestinely try get what I really want.

For me this really isn't even about Castle persay as what I really care about is just not seeing my fellow hobbyist getting lied to, and ripped off, and worst of all having their property destroyed by something that by someone with the using all of the above, are being told it won't, which apparently seems something incredibly wrong to care about by some people.

So in getting back to the storyline, after see him from these tiff's, at some point he took to doing this cataloging of this stuff via this list and which in itself is some what fine but I still say that even "without" a number produced thing, is rather deceptive for how he was doing it as while sure, every product made is going to have issues, but that comparing a 3-4th attempt at a fix and for the exact same failure, to which also this failure is virtually instantaneous and for sure not at all largely related to user installed errors or over use, but clearly is a defect of how the product was built...against ones to that are largely none of these things....is in itself, not even remotely credible as these are two COMPLETELY different situations, which thus shows how even more what his true intentions are for doing this.

But of course as this does not lend any help to his cause, he refuses to produce it in anyway that will show things right.

But anyway so as his list went on for the rest of the fall and early winter, as well it really was built largely while a lot of the Castle ESC's were being held up by Castle, and out of peoples hands, as they were so slow to return them and really a lot of them didn't get back until well into the much slower or non flying season for a lot of people. So there again, is another thing that made the comparisons really not creditable either as there were so few of them getting used. And then the winter came and then everything dropped off.

But as time went on occasionally you would read of some Castles and others having issues and I paid a lot of attention to many of these posts and I would say by shear off the top of my hear estimation, that often Scott would chime in to about 75% of them and spend a lot of time, (specifically if it was a Castle), doing all kinds of work to be 100% sure it was a pure ESC failure.

With one point I just want to bring up here, for all the time as long as Castle was not showing a larger failure rate then others (largely I would suspect too much of what I just described above) he never once put in anything about the production numbers and I know numbers of these types have been quote by Castle even before his first list.

So for the rest of the Winter and this early spring, as more people have gotten their ESC's back and the weather has gotten better, this list began to grow more and more to show how Castles were one, still burning somewhat despite even this last fix and under all the same conditions as they always did, and two, eventually, burning in total well more then the others on his list.

So then once the list got really overwhelmingly one sided, boom out comes the production number all of a sudden, and also touts of...oh well yeah...yeah there's a lot more Castles burnt that's true but look, look everyone, look how many more Castles there are out there and via my fully independent and completely non-partisan list, here is the proof of what I'm saying is true and a fact because look at the xyz ratio number my list helps to prove. Which of course is a statement saying that yeah, the overwhelming number is there, but really should be ignored.

But also to talk about this number he suddenly add a bit, one thing I would like to point out also is how I really love how he spent so much time going over and over and over things he found for all these months to be 100% the sure the Castle failures that he came upon were 100% creditable.

But then where did this production number come from??? It came from just some post that Pat or Les made where they said that is what it is, which who wouldn't even in their right minds not question that.

But then does he go through all the same vetting for that...nope, not one bit, he just puts it in, no questions asked, no seeing for sure any sales info, and not even by his own admission having contacted Castle in anyway for any details or specifics, and then as well, after starts going off talking about things like I just described above.

And not only that, but as I said before, even if this number is close it's about as uncredible and deceiving to this list as could be as it in no way does it take into account how many are actually in use. And for sure I would bet there are a very large amount that are not.

So and especially in the way he has done it, all it does is give a deceptive impression of what the real truth is.

And I know he knows all this so clearly and especially by the way this was suddenly added, this was just a reaction attempt to deal with how his list was not doing what he really wanted which really is something that while he tries to pass off as just a non partisan listing of things, is clearly really just a propaganda tool he is publishing to try to keep people buying Castle controllers despite the fact that even by his own list showing this is true, more of them are burning and destroying peoples property then any others.

Plus I can even more say this is true by the severe anger and reactions to my comments I have made as to why I think his list is deceptive, and the complete and severally adamant refusal to do any of the things to make it not so.

So anyone can say what they want but by no means when you look at all these things put together, can he or anyone else say that all that he is doing this for is what he calms to be doing it for, but for sure instead is just something that is a complete veiled sales and support tactic by him to get people who have no idea what he is doing to disregard all the negative things everyone knows about Castle and go out and buy them irregardless.

Also just to add that say what you want, but by no means would I expect any other fan boys who would want the same to not see things in his favor, and or to not come on here and support this and bash anyone who shows it for what it really is.

So as I said, the making of a list of just a pure an non-opinionate display of what controllers have failed so they can be arranged in one place for all to see is not something I see as wrong at all.

But to do what seems like that, but in reality, being doing something that is really just a cloaked propaganda tool, all just to try to help Castle sales, and even more worse, help sell products that have such an extreme and continuing history of doing so much damage to others property....that is a completely different thing entirely.

So again, you people can say or do what ever, but just don't be surprised when someone who knows exactly what you are doing, comes in and exposes it all as by no means do I see this as right and in any one bit containing anything of Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect to be exploiting the nature of this board to do this to the fellow and unsuspecting people in this hobby just to get what ever personal gains it is anyone gets.

[band]

Originally Posted by WBFAir

Believe it or not, I actually have so many other things to do with my time I barely have the time to write these posts.

LOL, for someone who "barely" has time to post, your posts are long. And your point in taking the time out of the very busy schedule is to bash Castle?

[dunkonu23]

Is this nuts or what?

If you folks have time, you can read this thread:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1450849&page=5.

There's another thread out there where I asked Castle if folks could exchange their ICE HV's at IRCHA and get replacement there. I can't find that one.

Here it is:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1473239

I apologize if I've offended anyone. I'm just going to fly my helicopters and have fun. WBFAir, what ever I did to you, I apologize. One more time, please just leave me alone.

Scott

[WBFAir]

You know what I find really illuminating....is how someone who feels that it is completely right to spend so much time working at such a concentrated and dedicated effort for months and months and months and months to do nothing but work at doing all he can to try to get people to believe something that isn't true...is true, such as trying to get everyone to believe that all ESC's controllers out there fail just as much as the Castles do, all just so they will keep buying them even though they have the highest rate of damage.

Will suddenly then get so upset when someone shows the same diligence in turning a spot light on them all like he feels that despite what he is doing, that in no way is it right that at least in the way he sees it, that anyone should do something like what he has been doing to others to him.

...wonder why that is?

Oh btw, I actually kinda like the little trick of first linking those posts and throwing something that you think is nasty about me that you think will mean something negative to everyone who reads my post...all before then at the end after that, apologizing and playing the victim card of asking me to leave you alone....good play there.

Pretty nice, you do something like that and then right in the same post say something like "what ever I did to you" all like you have never done anything...pretty smooth.

Guess the play now is to go the route of trying to keep playing the innocent but make me out to the be the bad guy all to get the mods to step in an get me out so you can go back to doing what you have been trying to do?

But actually I'm quite glad you did provide those as I'm actually quite proud of all the things I said in them and how it shows what kind of people it is I was dealing with.

Shows even more proof of what it is I care about too, and as well gives more for others to read about the things Castle has done and how they have behaved with things along the way.

Wasn't really thinking of bringing up all that history as that isn't what that this is about much, but I'm glad you thought is was a good idea to refresh everyone's memory of things such as this as there might be some new to things people that don't know all the things Castle has done and or some others who probably could use a reminder.

Anyway, hopefully in what will be the end of this, as much as you might think this is, I am not looking to do thing to do anything to you. Not looking for any apologize from you either, don't want to hound you or troll you or really do anything with you.

Just want you to stop lying to people.