Basic flying question

[Gahawn]

I've been flying fixed wing for some time now. Orientation isn't much of a problem for me but I'm having trouble getting the hang of it with my copters. Can anyone give me some advice on how I can figure it out?

[Boinker]

Hovering orientation will get you were you want to go. Get on the sim and do the trainer for orientation till you are beating a dead horse. It would also benefit you to do inverted orientations. That should do it. Remember that every orientation is as important aw the other and having while pirouetting will also help out.

One.major difference between what you are used to is Planes are directional and its a 2 or 3 step process to turn. For collective pitch helis its a 5 step process. Start from scratch and do the basics and build up to forward flight. Chad rg has a ton or great videos on YouTube. He has a pinned topic in this subforum so check those out and follow along.

[flycatch]

It always amazes me that when a question such as yours is asked hardly anyone replies. I taught myself to fly these machines because I don't believe a buddy box method works. Simulators help but IMO will never teach you how to fly in the real world. They are used as an introduction to the real thing and to maintain proficiency once the basics are mastered.
You being already a fixed wing pilot has that going for you. The only difference between a fixed and rotary machine is in the use of the rudder in making coordinated turns. If you bank with ailerons and don't use rudder the tail will drop. If this is not corrected the helicopter will crash. Other than that it will fly around just like an airplane. Landing is similar to landing an airplane. Just throttle back and keep your airspeed up by dropping the nose. Transitioning back into a hover is nothing more than bleeding off airspeed by raising the nose. Once the machine stops you drop the nose and add power to hover throttle/pitch setting.
One more word of advice is that when landing for the first time always allow the machine to pass by you before going into a hover. You don't want to be looking at the nose of the helicopter at this point of the learning curve.

[mcarter76]

Originally Posted by flycatch

It always amazes me that when a question such as yours is asked hardly anyone replies. I taught myself to fly these machines because I don't believe a buddy box method works.

Yeah that bothers me too and it's hard not to feel disappointed when I pose a good question and no one picks it up. Here are some reasons that I have come up with:

1. The question is too general or was already covered in other discussions. This may not be as obvious to new members like myself.
2. The thread title is not specific enough.
3. There is too much detail and people lose interest before getting to the end of it. Either that or it's slightly off topic.
4. People usually gravitate towards questions that relate to some topic of interest that personally appeals to them or their particular skill level.
5. It's more fun to discuss trivial topics and this might relate to how most people socialize in general... excepts nerds (like myself) who find technical topics more compelling than people and personalities.
6. The watched pot never boils. You are so eager to hear back that it sort of prevents others from replying. The opposite is also true, when you forget about a post and suddenly everyone has something to say about it

Now to respond to the question about hovering and orientation. I think practicing in all scenarios is ideal. I have been practicing all 4 hovering orientations in the sim, then with my v911, and finally with my 450. All of this is helping to keep my bird up in the air longer. However, I try to practice in the simulator the most, which is actually pretty realistic for me. If I can't do a good nose in hover in the sim, there's little to no gain to be made by attempting it with the real thing. Also, when I do nose in hovers with the 450, it's still pretty high up in the air to allow for corrections to be made and wind speed. I'm not that good yet.

Have fun man, it seems like hovering gets more satisfying the better you get at it.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Gahawn

I've been flying fixed wing for some time now. Orientation isn't much of a problem for me but I'm having trouble getting the hang of it with my copters. Can anyone give me some advice on how I can figure it out?

What do you mean by "getting the hang of it"?
- Takeoff, hovering and or landing
- Landing where you want
- Maintaining altitude
- Transition to forward flight from hovering
- Difference between heading hold flight and rate mode flight ("rate mode" similar to planks in forward flight, but harder to hover, land and near impossible for backwards flight)
- Turns
- Circuits
- Circles and 8s
- Loops and Rolls
- Inverted flight
(This is flight school, so assuming not maintenance, setup, or terminology).

As I don't know what part of "getting the hang of it" refers to. I could not answer.

With a question like this you need to state:
- What you are trying to do.
- What is happening whey you try do it.
- Be as specific as possible.

Like "I just cant get this thing stable when I try to hover, the tail keeps flippin round all over the place, and it keeps jumping up and down. Are these things supposed to be this insane? This is my first copter which is a xyz. My TX is abc. I have an N year history of flying planks, but am new to this copter craziness". (This I can answer).

Originally Posted by mcarter76

Yeah that bothers me too and it's hard not to feel disappointed when I pose a good question and no one picks it up. Here are some reasons that I have come up with:

1. The question is too general or was already covered in other discussions. This may not be as obvious to new members like myself.
2. The thread title is not specific enough.
3. There is too much detail and people lose interest before getting to the end of it. Either that or it's slightly off topic.
4. People usually gravitate towards questions that relate to some topic of interest that personally appeals to them or their particular skill level.
5. It's more fun to discuss trivial topics and this might relate to how most people socialize in general... excepts nerds (like myself) who find technical topics more compelling than people and personalities.
6. The watched pot never boils. You are so eager to hear back that it sort of prevents others from replying. The opposite is also true, when you forget about a post and suddenly everyone has something to say about it

I think you got it. There should be a section on how to ask a question (or for advice).

I am largely self taught (a lot of research and advice from HeliFreak and other resources), helis only, no planks, no previous RC experience at all. I have two others that I have flown with. One is just above my standard, one started after I did and is not as far progressed (and is not on HF).

btw, Buddy boxing is from a time when micros and simulators did not exists. They still have their place. It allows an experienced instructor to help prevent a student crashing by taking over some of the controls (like cyclic) so they don't have to learn all the controls at once. Also can act as a rescue method to prevent losing a heli, or endangering people, by handover to the instructor. A lot now learn alone on sim or micros (and will never need a buddy box). A club may insist on buddy-boxing a new pilot until they have passed some basic tests to ensure safety.

[lwbrewer]

Use to race rc cars oval. orintation not a big thing inside outside of track, and go faster.lol.
Have flowen a realy plane own a ultralight[ not togeother yet] got me back into rc. Figured flying would keep my skills up. Than I watched a heli and flew it and got hooked. My level at this time is tail towards me inside the house outside a little more [ more time to think before action needed] I don't look at the controls as left or right due to they can switch. My MSRX has a blue led on one side so I look at it as going blue or away. Since your already a plane flier I assume you've mastered that part. Your TX you can add some DR&expo to dumb it down some at first I really slowed the rudder as I want to stay tail towards me. Practicing hoovering till it gets old I like inside/ no wind so I learnt everthing was a cause of my movement not the wind. Also like the smaller heli as they can take a crash pretty good and continue on plus parts are cheap. I've flowen over 400 batteries in a month at first just getting off the ground without it going left and crashing from over correction or trying to correct before it left the ground. Now that isn't even a thought I need to think of. Bounce the bird up I like to get it at least 2' up so it's not so squirly from ground effects. Even went as far as starting from a bar stool to reduce the effects. With lots of practice a chour today will be a thoughtless action tomorrow. Hopefully your not starting out with a expensive bird if your all worried your going to crash it that might hinder your learning process.
Good luck

[Steve Graham]

I've been using two tools with remarkable success training new pilots.

1. Simulator online sessions. I use both RF 6.5 and Phoenix. The ability to talk, demonstrate and watch the sticks while the student goes through the fundamental skills is INVALUABLE. I would be happy to meet you online sometime.

2. For people that are local to me I set up the trainer cord with my Gaui X5. This allows the student to get their first IRL experiences under the supervision of someone who's knees don't shake when the heli spools up. It also allows me to guide the whole process at the field including setup, preflight, practice methodology and post flight procedures all with an eye towards operating safely with the highest probability that the heli will go home in one piece and the worst of newbie mistakes can be caught before they become expensive.

Based on where you live it should not be hard to find local help. Many enjoy the challenge of teaching themselves how to fly. It is not optimum.

[mcarter76]

Originally Posted by Steve Graham

I've been using two tools with remarkable success training new pilots.

1. Simulator online sessions. I use both RF 6.5 and Phoenix. The ability to talk, demonstrate and watch the sticks while the student goes through the fundamental skills is INVALUABLE. I would be happy to meet you online sometime.

Steve, do you recommend RF or Phoenix? I have been using ClearView RC quite a bit, but the heli selection is limited and it doesn't seem like the maintainer is actively working on it.

I found a lightly used Blade mCP X on eBay and was thinking of ordering a cheap Spektrum Tx to fly it like the DX5e, but recently noticed Phoenix has a kit that comes with that transmitter, so that might be the better way to go.

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by Gahawn

I've been flying fixed wing for some time now. Orientation isn't much of a problem for me but I'm having trouble getting the hang of it with my copters. Can anyone give me some advice on how I can figure it out?

Just to be clear ...

Are you meaning ...

- You're having trouble working out which way it's pointing / going when it gets far away, or

- Even though you know which way it's pointing, you're having trouble knowing which way to move the sticks?

[Steve Graham]

Originally Posted by mcarter76

Steve, do you recommend RF or Phoenix? I have been using ClearView RC quite a bit, but the heli selection is limited and it doesn't seem like the maintainer is actively working on it.

I found a lightly used Blade mCP X on eBay and was thinking of ordering a cheap Spektrum Tx to fly it like the DX5e, but recently noticed Phoenix has a kit that comes with that transmitter, so that might be the better way to go.

Pros and Cons with both. For price conscious PHX. Updates are free. For flight physics modeling, RF. Both work well for doing online training sessions.

[Crenmore]

I can't seem to get the hang of hovering a CP heli, in real life or on Phoenix. I've got an MCPX (not to mention a 450 and a 500 that I've yet to assemble pending just learning to keep it in the air). Being new to something like this at 60 years old is quite daunting. Hand/eye isn't what it used to be when I was flying Cesnas. I noticed Steve's post about online assistance with the sim. Is that available? If so, how can I take advantage of it. I really need it and I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by Crenmore

I can't seem to get the hang of hovering a CP heli, in real life or on Phoenix. I've got an MCPX (not to mention a 450 and a 500 that I've yet to assemble pending just learning to keep it in the air). Being new to something like this at 60 years old is quite daunting. Hand/eye isn't what it used to be when I was flying Cesnas. I noticed Steve's post about online assistance with the sim. Is that available? If so, how can I take advantage of it. I really need it and I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

I'm not far behind you - and went through the same thing.

Just remember that the disk follows the stick - and because a helicopter is unstable you'll constantly be putting small inputs into hovering (small and frequent or large and less frequent).

Remember too that the cyclic is an acceleration control - the further you move it the faster is accelerates - so you'll be constantly accelerating the helicopter in one direction and then another and then another.

[Crenmore]

That's what I constantly do, give it a little to the right because it drifts left and backward. Next thing I know, I'm in some sort of rocking chair that resembles a ride in an amusment park. I understand that it won't stop moving in a particular direction until you put in opposite stick. Where does it stop. I hardly move the thing a centimeter and off it goes.

[Trini92]

Originally Posted by Crenmore

That's what I constantly do, give it a little to the right because it drifts left and backward. Next thing I know, I'm in some sort of rocking chair that resembles a ride in an amusment park. I understand that it won't stop moving in a particular direction until you put in opposite stick. Where does it stop. I hardly move the thing a centimeter and off it goes.

I know that feeling. After starting out i realized i was giving to many and too much stick input. An anology that helped me out early on was try to imagine balancing a marble on a large platter. Once it starts to roll in one direction you tilt the opposite direction to slow then move it back to center. Before it gets to center you start tilting in the original direction to slow down and come close to center. I applied the same thing to hovering, be ready to start slowing the motion you are compensating for before the heli gets where you want it to be. If you don't you overshoot and then you need a big stick movement to correct and the see saw starts.

After lift off you're giving the correct input but be prepared to pull it back shortly after its starts to move to the right. Then let it sit there and see what it does. When hovering i was told to stop messing with the heli until it starts to do something you don't want it to do, then start the small adjustments. I had a tendency of making adjustments when none were really needed. But hey its all part of the learning experience. I still have a lot to learn myself. Hope this helps.

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by Crenmore

That's what I constantly do, give it a little to the right because it drifts left and backward. Next thing I know, I'm in some sort of rocking chair that resembles a ride in an amusment park. I understand that it won't stop moving in a particular direction until you put in opposite stick. Where does it stop. I hardly move the thing a centimeter and off it goes.

A centimetre - woah! No. Try a few millimetres tops for hovering. A centimetre would be like putting your foot about 1/2 way down in the accelerator getting away from the lights in town - it'll do it, but you'll probably accelerate more than you need to, and then you'll need an equally big input to stop it a second later.

Usually more but smaller corrections work best - often 2 or 3 a second.

[Crenmore]

Thanks. You both make great analogies that I know will be helpful. I'll try millimeters and I'll try riegning in my input before it gets past the point of Oh-Oh! What about trim? It seems that one click is all it needs to go off to the races in any direction it so chooses.

[Crenmore]

Originally Posted by ColinSouthern

I'm not far behind you - and went through the same thing.

Remember too that the cyclic is an acceleration control - the further you move it the faster is accelerates - so you'll be constantly accelerating the helicopter in one direction and then another and then another.

.

This seems to have helped me some. I've been using the cyclic more like a rudder than an accelerator. Atleast now I'm getting to the point where I can slow it down enough to land it rather than crash it in. I'll keep working it and maybe with a little help from Steve, I'll be able to keep it still long enough to put in some trim and take on some FF. Thanks again.

[Vermillionx]

You should be landing to put in trim. I even get nervous when I see people flying S&L while trying to put in trim. It just makes things a lot safer if you land add the trim then take off and hover again.

[ColinSouthern]

Forward Flight is pretty easy - it's the turns that'll bite you; if you don't co-ordinate them properly or you over-tilt the disk in a turn it can start heading down pretty quick.

I'd suggest getting reasonably comfortable with nose-in hovering at altitude before trying FF, unless you have something like a HC3sX that can self-level the bird and provide rescue on command.

[Crenmore]

Originally Posted by Trini92

I know that feeling. After starting out i realized i was giving to many and too much stick input. An anology that helped me out early on was try to imagine balancing a marble on a large platter. Once it starts to roll in one direction you tilt the opposite direction to slow then move it back to center. Before it gets to center you start tilting in the original direction to slow down and come close to center. I applied the same thing to hovering, be ready to start slowing the motion you are compensating for before the heli gets where you want it to be. If you don't you overshoot and then you need a big stick movement to correct and the see saw starts.

.... When hovering i was told to stop messing with the heli until it starts to do something you don't want it to do, then start the small adjustments. I had a tendency of making adjustments when none were really needed. But hey its all part of the learning experience. I still have a lot to learn myself. Hope this helps.

Yeah, I'm trying to fly the MCPX and I keep reading about how stable the little bugger is but the thing just goes off on me. I tried your advice about stopping the movement before it gets back to where I want it. Doesn't seem to work. The input doesn't take soon enough or it takes immediately. BTW, do you belong to club in this area?