HC sue KDS - Flymentor is a counterfeit

[Kepler]

There was about $80 USD difference between the two when I bought it. I had the luxury of trying before buying. There was abosolutely no difference on how well they flew so I went the cheaper option.

[Windbreaker]

Regarding the comparison of a company manufacturing and selling T-Rex 450 clones, the analogy is more like this:

Selling copies of the HC code, without HC's permission, is like someone breaking into Align's factory, stealing truckloads of T-Rex kits, then selling them on the open market.

HC took the time and cost of developing and producing this programming. Then another company steals the fruit of that labor, markets it, and deprives HC of the revenue that is generated by that product.

Programming code is protected by copyright. Making copies of that code, and selling it without permission of the authors, is theft. It's the same as stealing recorded music or movies. You have a right to the profits derived from your creative work for a given period of time. Someone can take that idea and create something better, but they CANNOT sell copies of it without your permission.

Otherwise, anyone can photocopy Stephen King's books, add a few words, and sell it as a "derivative work".

Buying a KDS system that uses HC's code is essentially the same as buying stolen merchandise. It might not involve actual physical theft, but the ethics are the same. If you don't like the idea of someone stealing the helicopter you worked hard to buy and build, then don't buy products containing stolen goods.

[seanh]

I've read several comments that KDS FLymentor is theft...probably not, most of the chinese counterfeit items are not 100% copies, close but not near enough to actually be considered counterfeit. They use different inferior components with code that is not all the same.

A cheep import copy that is known to be a cheap knockoff is not counterfeit or theft. Now, if KDS was selling a product called 2nd pilot or KOPILOT and had the same components using the same firmware then yes, it's theft. But this isn't the case here.

If you make any type of product and put it out there for the public to purchase sooner or later someone will make a generic version of it...welcome to fair business trade...

Our economic backbone is Capitolism not Socialism. I hope KDS wins...

On a side note..if I want software designed I can call a few people in China and India to write anything I need for less than 100bucks a day...the product will be finished in less than a month (several cases less than a week) and in the case of stabilization and gyro software, probably a weekend.

[Windbreaker]

Originally Posted by seanh

If you make any type of product and put it out there for the public to purchase sooner or later someone will make a generic version of it...welcome to fair business trade...

Our economic backbone is Capitolism not Socialism. I hope KDS wins...

Capitalism doesn't condone criminal theft. It encourages an entrepeneurial spirit and rewards hard work. Theft is hardly fair trade, any more than breaking into someone's house is a "generous donation for the needy".

KDS didn't win the case. HC demonstrated that KDS used HC's code in Flymentor's firmware and won an injunction against KDS in a court in Germany. KDS has not filed an appeal.

Imagine if you were the only person to take a photo of Elvis coming back to Earth on an alien spaceship. That would be worth millions of dollars, right? Then the Associated Press gets a hold of a copy, and distributes it to every newspaper, magazine and TV show. They get paid a fortune. You don't get a dime. They cropped it slightly different from your original, sharpened it slightly, and did some color correction. Is this a "derivative work"? Is that considered fair business trade?

Copyrights and patents are intellectual property rights. It protects those who spent a lot of time and effort to create something unique. Condoning and encouraging the outright theft of those property rights will discourage bright inventors from developing innovative products.

Want cool stuff? Reward and encourage the creative geniuses who designed and developed it. Not the jerks who ripped them off.

[nightflyr]

Gentlemen,

Before people get hot under the collar, and begin a verbal assault on one another.
Just let the courts make the decision on KDS innocents or guilt..... to my knowledge KDS has not made any type of public or business statement concerning the actions of Captron/Helicommand in the courts, and by now I am fairly certain they have been notified of the injunction placed upon them.

Time will show, just let the law do its job, and make its decisions concerning KDS and Captron, in the mean time and try to keep peace here.


nightflyr

[wwhhtt]

Originally Posted by Windbreaker

...

Want cool stuff? Reward and encourage the creative geniuses who designed and developed it. Not the jerks who ripped them off.

How do you stop the creative geniuses to rip you off then?

If it's really "cool stuff", make it free, like Linux.

[jimheliboy]

I would expect that they have plenty of evidence by way of reverse engineering that a KDH device is an infringement on a copy right. If they are found guilty they should loose everything period.

[seanh]

Why was the court hearing in Germany and not in the US? Seriously...don't know enough of the case yet.

As to Capitolism doesn't justify theft...Wrong, that's exactly how Capitolism functions. If it were all legit, you could do very well financially by following the rules. Take Enron for example. Other companies were and are doing the same thing.


So, they used the code. Was it all of the code or was the code modified? You have to understand, with electronics there is a fine line between what works and what doesn't work with the same type of electronics. So, lets look at the code and see. Lets look at the hardware.

Has anyone pulled apart the two side by side and compared the hard ware components? Has anyone pulled the firmware and compared the two line by line?

Regardless of the court case...the outcome makes no difference...the winner in most court cases just had a better dog and pony show. Remember, a court case is about presentation and perception...very little is based on facts.

[seanh]

OK got a little more info...

http://www.helicommand.com/index.php...blog&Itemid=50

interesting...the course posted a ruling with out hearing the opposing argument...so, either it's an exact copy of HC or the magistrate has go stock in Captron. To make a ruling with out hearing defense? Sounds kind of funny to me. What's missing?

The facts.

I'd like someone to provide the code to both, lets see if they are the same.

[Windbreaker]

Originally Posted by wwhhtt

How do you stop the creative geniuses to rip you off then?

If it's really "cool stuff", make it free, like Linux.

How to stop a creative genius from ripping you off? Don't buy it. Or build your own.

Someone who creates and markets a product can charge whatever the market will bear. Higher demand often leads to higher prices. That's capitalism, and it works. That person also has the right to release a product for free, as many "open source" programming authors do. And that's great, too.

But no one has the right to grab someone else's hard work and market or release it without the creator's permission. Doesn't matter if it's a disc full of computer code, A CD full of music, or a crate full of LiPo batteries. That's theft. And that's wrong.

[seanh]

still want to know why there is no case filed here in the States. There could be several reasons....but I'm guessing that there is no actual theft involved. Just because they got an injunction in Germany doesn't mean squat when the defense isn't allowed to present an argument.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by seanh

still want to know why there is no case filed here in the States. There could be several reasons....but I'm guessing that there is no actual theft involved. Just because they got an injunction in Germany doesn't mean squat when the defense isn't allowed to present an argument.

Why would a German based company suing a asian company, file suit in the United States??? we have no interest in their court business

Or are you thinking that Captron is located in the US????
nightflyr

[MarkWebber]

Yeah, that's right...it must be a German court conspiracy!

I don't know anyone from Captron but I do know those from Spartan and have watched the results of their efforts being stolen. For those who want to rationalize, be argumentative and accusatory of the victim, I contend that you are part of the problem. The thieves would not profit if it were not for those willing to purchase stolen materials. Would you knowingly receive stolen goods on the street? Maybe steel from someone else yourself? Then how does it differ from supporting those that do steel the intellectual property of another? Rationalize all you want to save a few bucks...it's just wrong.
If this product is in fact a counterfeit, it's in all our interests to avoid it. Counterfeiters do nothing to advance our hobby.

[Kepler]

Originally Posted by MarkWebber

Yeah, that's right...it must be a German court conspiracy!

I don't know anyone from Captron but I do know those from Spartan and have watched the results of their efforts being stolen. For those who want to rationalize, be argumentative and accusatory of the victim, I contend that you are part of the problem. The thieves would not profit if it were not for those willing to purchase stolen materials. Would you knowingly receive stolen goods on the street? Maybe steel from someone else yourself? Then how does it differ from supporting those that do steel the intellectual property of another? Rationalize all you want to save a few bucks...it's just wrong.
If this product is in fact a counterfeit, it's in all our interests to avoid it. Counterfeiters do nothing to advance our hobby.

So are you suggesting that people like myself who have purchased products like the Flymentor are also a thief? It certainly sounds that way.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by Kepler

So are you suggesting that people like myself who have purchased products like the Flymentor are also a thief? It certainly sounds that way.

John,
No one is calling you a thief, like yourself I purchased the FM b4 anyone knew that they were being sort after by Captron....I know this and so do you.

People are going to vent and say ignorant statements, be a bit smarter

nightflyr

[JohnAu]

Its not just the Flymentor thats going to Bring KDS into Disrepute, all their electronic products are going to be seen in the same light.

JohnAu

[seanh]

getting a product, knowing how it works and finding a way to make it cheaper is not theft...it's how our free enterprise works. You may not agree with it but it's just the way it is, especially in electronics such as a flight stabilization system. The components are limited, the parameters are limited therefore the code to make it function is limited.

I see that no one has commented on the facts..just opinions based on theory and conjecture. So, we have an accusation of theft...and a court that did not hear all of the facts and made a ruling...

has any one of you seen the code? I thought not..

how many of you have actually built electronic devices that required some type of firmware? Yea, very few.

those of you that have know that in a limited environment with limited parameters and limited hardware...the codes will be vary similar. Take a dozen people that have taken the same classes in electronics design and give them all the same design criteria with components that though are from different manufacturers function near identically and you'll find code that is very close to the same.

Captron just doesn't like having a competitor...so they presented a case to an ignorant magistrate a very good dog and pony show.

of course, KDS's product may be an exact copy...if so, then the KDS firm ware will work with ZERO difference in functionality in the HC product right.

So, though the above has been mentioned, no one has commented on it....only KDS has committed theft.

Well lets see a test. if the complaint is true then the KDS firmware will function flawlessly in the HC. If it does not then their is no theft....just KDS found a way to make the product cheaper and function within the market value....that is not theft at all it's part of the fair market trade practice.

[kgfly]

Methinks he doth protest too much !

It is easy to misconstrue tone in text posts but to me Seanh your comments come across as arrogant and aggressive and frankly don't make much sense. I have over twenty years experience in embedded systems design and software development and based on that your statements are silly. While it is true that with similar inputs designers might produce similar solutions, there is a vast gap between "similar" and "identical". In reality, if I give two developers with the same skill level a set of functional requirements to write software for an existing hardware platform the chances of their source code being evenly distantly similar are very low indeed, there are simply too many ways to skin every cat in the software world. Go one step further to the compiled binaries and they will certainly be vastly different.

Even if the KDS firmware is not identical to the Captron it could still contain substantial amounts of copied code. Just as it is not hard for someone with the right skills and equipment to reverse engineer code on a well known microcontroller, it is also not hard to identify if such copying has taken place.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the merits of unbridled competition with little concern for fair versus unfair practices. If KDS saw the Captron product and decided to create a competitor from scratch with similar capabilities nobody would be concerned. The claim is that they did not do so but rather reverse engineered a single instance of the Captron product and then started churning out a copy. Not an original design, but a copy at the hardware and firmware level. If that is true then it is far from admirable and certainly not any form of beneficial competition.

Your preference to believe in the German courts being either stupid or corrupt or both or that a small company like Captron think they can quash valid competition by spending large sums on lawyers over the possibility that a previously unheard of Chinese hobby company with a string of clone products has indeed copied Captron's work is downright silly and very much in the conspiracy theorist realm

You are correct that none of us has access to the facts outside of what has been made public. We are all free to decide what sounds most plausible based on the available information. To me the balance of probabilities favours Captron's claim.

[Windbreaker]

Originally Posted by seanh

getting a product, knowing how it works and finding a way to make it cheaper is not theft...it's how our free enterprise works.

In that sense it's true. The hot item of contention is how much of the code was taken verbatim and simply duplicated. What the court would need to see is whether code was merely copied and reapplied. Apparently enough of that was provided to convince the court -- technically savvy or not -- to allow an injunction. Doesn't take an expert to recognize plagarism.

But as you said, it's a matter of seeing whether KDS puts up a defense.

The true and final test is in the marketplace: if a competitor can provide a product that's cheaper and reliable, then everyone will come knocking on their door. But as everyone knows, if the system can't properly stabilize a helicopter, then the offered cure is worse than the disease.

[ongbenghui]

Originally Posted by Windbreaker

But as you said, it's a matter of seeing whether KDS puts up a defense.

I am not suggest either HC or KDS is right or wrong.

Not putting up a Defence might be a business decision.
ie...
German court is expensive, German lawyers are expensive.
German market might not be that big. Just ignore it.

Will be interesting if it is filed in US.