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01-24-2012, 03:54 PM | #1 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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To govern or not no govern
just wondering as I'm really planing to get me one of those big bad kick ass heli , hehe , I read lots of guys are using governer on the big birds but I've never tried it , use trottle curve on my 6HV but on a 700 size is it better to go governer
whats the advantages of using governer than using trottle curve please hjelp to understand the concept of using governer -got a full v-bar blue and soon two DMSX sat joing the team -HW120HV but not rally sure of using it after what happened with Tom's ESC ( not desided what to get ) - skorp or pyro motor thanks
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| Kraken 700 : Neo | Atom 6HV : Evo | Raw 580 : Neo | vbct | |
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01-24-2012, 04:24 PM | #2 (permalink) |
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Dunno what the advantage is. Never been able to grasp it. Maybe it gives longer flight times because you can fly with a lower head speed, as it is harder to bog the head even with that lower headspeed. None of my helis are governed and the all fly okay, the only time I really bog the head is when I screw up and end up with massive amounts of cyclic and collective together during the rescue. These moments, in my case, if they could be coped with by a governor, would mean that you would have to have to have a really large power overhead available. Since I am running close to 100% anyway, don't know where that can come from. I don't fly like a 3D champ, but I'm starting to be able to do some half reasonable 3D, and I never see an issue with 100 95 90 95 100 or something like that. Simple and works. Don't need to have selectable headspeeds, and even if I did I could have stunt 2 set to a different curve.
Raf will come and tell us, he is a governor expert, and big proponent thereof. I'm sure there must be a reason for bigger helis. Cheers Sutty
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Regards, Sutty BeltEXI, mCX, mSR, 4G3, FBL Trex250SE µB, FBL Trex450Pro µB, FBL Trex550e VX1 Pro, FBL Trex600ESP VX1e, Parkzone P51D, QRX350Pro |
01-24-2012, 05:30 PM | #3 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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I wont be much of a help either unfortunately...None of my big helis was/is governed,not even my gasser.
During my research on the governor though back in the days,everybody said that it is very easy to over rev an engine without a governor
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T-Rex 700 Gasser Tarot500 (soon to be fbl) Hitec Aurora9 with telemetry |
01-24-2012, 05:45 PM | #4 (permalink) |
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Yeah fair enough. I was locked into my electric mode of thinking. That's all I've ever had, or intend to have.
I can see how overspeeding could be an issue, but even then, with an appropriate throttle curve, surely it would work safely still? Anyway, be that as it may, I did try the governor on the 450 with no success. I had to increase the pinion to 14T to make sure I had my required headspeed, with enough headroom for the governor to work, but with a 14T pinion my motor didn't produce enough torque. Either that or I just couldn't get the settings right. Probably not the best governor, but after many batteries of pissing around, and not flying, I turned it off, went back to 13T, and hey presto all was well again and I was flying just like before. No noticeable overspeeding, and as I say bogging only when I seriously screwed up. I did have a long chat with Raf, on more than one occasion, and he explained about many of the advantages, it's just that I don't remember them properly. Cheers Sutty
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Regards, Sutty BeltEXI, mCX, mSR, 4G3, FBL Trex250SE µB, FBL Trex450Pro µB, FBL Trex550e VX1 Pro, FBL Trex600ESP VX1e, Parkzone P51D, QRX350Pro |
01-25-2012, 02:48 AM | #5 (permalink) |
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OK, my 2 cents in a nutshell.
Some advantages: Same headspeed at the beginning and the end of the flight, the RPMs won’t go down because of the inevitable lowering voltage of the packs. In other words, a very consistent feeling during the whole flight. What you’re doing with the common slightly V-shaped curve like 100-95-90-95-100 or similar, is in fact mimic the behavior of a governor manually: give the motor more headroom at large pitch values. But a governor does this much better of course, as the above numbers are only guesses about how much more power the motor might need in such cases. Depending your setup and flying style, who could say that 100-90-80-90-100 might work better or worse, for example ? Also, you don’t really avoid overspeeding with these curves, which a governor does. Never saw any real disadvantages if you know what you’re doing. No huge differences in flight, especially on smaller helis, but noticeable anyway. The advantages grow as your flight style becomes more aggressive. All my helis are governed (except the scale Logo 400, until now that is), and I’m never going back. No messing with different throttle curves for me, set 1 value for the RPM, and done. Kontronik governors rock, BTW, extremely simple to set up but very effective.
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Logo 800 - TDR 14S - TDR 12S - Logo 500SE - Logo 400 - Furion 450 6S mini-V - 300X - 150S - mCPX - Schluter Bell Huey Cobra '74 - Aura 4 hotliner - F27D Evo |
01-25-2012, 04:02 AM | #6 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Also the reason I'm considering it for the 600N - avoid overspeeding the engine. Also like the idea of having normal mode, and 2 different headspeeds on a switch. You can select the headspeed to match your own frame of mind for that particular day's flying. Normal Mode/Crazy Sports mode1/Mental 3D mode 2 I think Raf's spot on, but I'll take Sutty's wisdom as a word of caution. Going to try it on my Scorpion Commander45A ESC. But I'm wondering if it's good enough for the job, and I'll end up going back to curves, like Sutty. Can't really afford a kontronic, so one things for sure, I'll find out when I try it.
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COPTERBOY DX6i, mSR (SOLD), BeltCP (SOLD), mCPx w solid boom and Rakon Heli Head T-Rex450V2 w.PRO head, Scorp-8 & 45A V2 ESC, CSM4200/S9257, 3xHS65MG E-Flite CX2 - All Microheli/Extreme CNC CF Upgrades TRex600N, Kasama Head, OS50SX |
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01-25-2012, 07:26 AM | #7 (permalink) | |
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Quote:
Good point Raf about the consistent headspeed throughout the pack, but I guess I'm not good enough to notice. Then again, I always, mmh, nearly always, fly with a good deal of margin for my packs. Newer batteries now hold their voltage better and better too. My FlightPower packs, even the ones that have puffed, have an incredibly flat voltage discharge curve. Drops quickly initially, probably before you are even starting your first moves, then it is almost totally flat for the useable portion of the pack, and beyond that it drops really suddenly. No bull, I cannot tell the difference in performance from beginning to the end of my 5 minute flights on any of my FlightPower packs. Not disputing the merits of a good controller like the ones Raf uses, that is clear, but if you can get yours to work properly Denis, I will be surprised. Good luck to you if you decide to try though. Now if I was to undertake another build, that Goblin 700 looks interesting. Been looking on Fast Lad for pricing info, that would be another matter. I would certainly look to use a controller of the quality that Raf is referring to, and I would ensure it was governed, but as it stands I'm not going to buy new controllers until the ones I have fail on me, if they ever do. Cheers Sutty
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Regards, Sutty BeltEXI, mCX, mSR, 4G3, FBL Trex250SE µB, FBL Trex450Pro µB, FBL Trex550e VX1 Pro, FBL Trex600ESP VX1e, Parkzone P51D, QRX350Pro |
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01-25-2012, 08:36 AM | #8 (permalink) |
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With high quality packs you will feel less of the decrease in RPM indeed, I agree totally Andrew.
I'm estimating that the cheaper (like Hobbyking stuff that I use) or average pack though will easily have a 10% voltage decrease throughout the whole flight. Which translates into 10% less RPM. something you don't notice as such a large decrease, because it happens gradually over a 5 or 10 minute period or so. But I know that the difference when flying a 450 at 3000 or 2700 RPM is very noticable, or a 700 at let's say 1800 and 1620 RPM. As I said, nothing to worry about, governors might just be a nice extra for many pilots, and not really necessary for most. It's like discussing FB and FBL, there's no end to that discussion, FB might even be better for real F3C flying, so it depends on personal preferences, budget, etc... So Ragge, is it worth it ? Can't answer that for you. Does it work well ? Yes, depending on the equipment. CC ESCs can be a pain to set up the governor right. BTW, the V-Bar has also a nice governor on board, and works well with the HW ESC, even MrMel uses these, if that counts for a reference. Is there a difference ? Yes, you should try it, the feeling is quite different.
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Logo 800 - TDR 14S - TDR 12S - Logo 500SE - Logo 400 - Furion 450 6S mini-V - 300X - 150S - mCPX - Schluter Bell Huey Cobra '74 - Aura 4 hotliner - F27D Evo |
01-25-2012, 10:49 AM | #9 (permalink) |
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Kontronic and Scorpion you have to set the head speed based on your throttle percentage. So can take a bit of testing (read taching) to get your desired headspeed set. With Castle you set the headspeed via the control software based on gear ratios etc. and the unit will keep that speed for you.
Out of those three it seems to be the concensus that the Kontronic governor is the best. I've tried the Scorpion gov on the Furion 450 and it is really inconsistent, so much so that I went back to using curves similar to Sutty. The Kontronic Jive on the Furion 6 is pretty awsome and I'd certainly look to use one of those in a larger model, although the new HV Scorpions are looking good with the BEC included. Choices choices!
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01-25-2012, 11:07 AM | #10 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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Thanks Raf ,
gonna try it on the 700 , if it goes my way the late February / Mars I will be building a 700 heli , selling my small birds , 250 and 450s
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| Kraken 700 : Neo | Atom 6HV : Evo | Raw 580 : Neo | vbct | |
01-25-2012, 11:12 AM | #11 (permalink) |
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Ragge, I'm not flying aggressively by any means and I don't feel much of a difference between a nice throttle curve and a governor, but what I can feel is a better tail holding when flying with a governor, I guess constant RPM helps here.
One advantage of using an internal v-bar governor over the external ones would be that it will probably make it impossible to bog the motor down, as it can reduce collective when it sees RPM dropping down too much. At least SK720 has this option (even if I haven't activated it yet). As for governor performance I did some tests on my 6HV using the HW-70A-HV internal governor and then SK720 built-in governor, both test flights releasing TH with idle-up already activated, trying to run 2000RPM head speed. The results were interesting to say the least: Five test hovers with HW-70A-HV internal governor: Three short test flights with SK720 built-in governor: I attribute the difference to the SK720 knowing immediately of collective changes and changing the speed demand instantaneously whereas HW-70A-HV has to wait and see the RPM drop before it reacts. I would expect similar results from v-bar governor. The only disadvantage that I can see: fbl controller based governor needs an RPM sensor installed (piece of cake on electric helis, more serious business on nitros), while ESC based governor either doesn't use a sensor or will have one built-in. Edit: Don't know if you noticed an interesting side effect; the sudden change in RPM increases vibrations on your heli, so keeping the RPM constant will help the performance of the gyroscopes, whether inside of fbl controller or just in the tail gyro in a fb setup. Explains only so-so performance of GY401s on both of my 600Ns, which are not governed.
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Jerry Trex 700N Pro fbl, 600N Pro x 2, 450SE v1, 250 v2 fbl, Compass 6HV fbl, Blade 450x, 400, 300x, 130x, mCPx, 120SR, mQx, mSR, Rotor Concepts HPQ1, Walkera CB180Q, CB100, Novus FP, CP, Esky Hunter, Big Lama. |
04-19-2012, 12:26 PM | #12 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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wondering if you hade all size helis ; 250 - 800 size which will you guys have governor and which one you won't bother
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| Kraken 700 : Neo | Atom 6HV : Evo | Raw 580 : Neo | vbct | |
04-19-2012, 01:34 PM | #13 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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I'd govern all of them. I only run 1 electric and 1 nitro now but I govern both via Skookum controllers. I find it gives a more consistent cyclic feel and there are also the benefits of consistent performance during a flight. With electric I gear for 15% overhead and voltage drop through the pack.
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