how does a Pantera 50 stack up to the Raven?

[RAV50]

Garland,

I can understand buying because of the fire sale pricing on them.

I know that if I had bought one at their regular $369.95.00 price a month or so before he started selling them at $299.00 for 2. I would have really felt ripped off.

Let's face it. At the standard price he was selling them for a few months ago, two of them would have cost me $740.00...now only $299.00!!!

That is why I question the reason for selling at that price. The only time I have ever seen helis sell for almost 60% off was from manufactures who were closing shop.

And even when some of these - like Kalt and TSK - were still not offered with such a discount.

Personally, I would now be afraid of ever buying any new helis from him in the future. How could I be assured they would hold their value, as he could come along and sell them to others at any time for 60% off again.

[jbeech]

If you're entertained by my massive missives, here goes . . . RAV50, I understand your viewpoint, but it's based on opinion instead of facts.

Look folks, I'm not in the business of predicting the future, that's above my pay grade. That said, no, I am not in danger of going out of business - the opposite in fact. I've been self-employed in the hobby business since 1993 so we know what to do during recesssions, e.g. cut expenses and hunker down. Since this isn't our first dance, we recognized the signs early and took immediate action. Consequently, we're well positioned to take advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity to gain market share.

It's a fact the economy is in the toilet. Here's another fact, this offer is putting pressure on others in the 50-class, not by accident but by intent. It's working because astute modelers, e.g. those with good solid common sense recognize a deal when they see it - instead of being influenced by the loudest voice. Witness Garland's action (though Lord knows RAV50 has been quite loud in his opposition).

And not merely loud, but it appears you've even submitted to them completely, e.g. submerged your own identity as a man to this Chinese creation; look at the screen name - RAV50. Could it be Raven 50 was already taken and this was the best you could do? My God, what would anybody expect but for you to defend the product as loudly you have? They own you! But what real stake do you have here, e.g. that you try so very hard to loudly influence people in hopes they'll think like you do? Sure, I have a dog in this hunt because the Pantera is my product. Consquently, folks can expect me to be vigorous in defense and promotion. Nevertheless, I use my Christian name and operate above board and in the open instead of hiding behind a "handle". Garland, by the way, is the Christian name of the man who started this thread . . . I know because he ended up buying some models from us.

So pray tell, what's 'your' agenda anyway RAV50, or are you also branded, e.g. by having Raven tattooed on your hind end? Are you so wedded to this Chinese product you feel threatened and thus, have to resort to bluster, like a bully in the schoolyard? Why resort to inuendo about our survival as a business entity unless this is the case? Or is it just out of fear folks will think for themselves and consider something other than your beloved Raven 50? What's funny is the Raven 50 isn't even one of our natural competitors! Why not? Because it's more akin in construction style to the Vibe, Frenzy, 600N, etc.

Frankly, our two biggest competitors in the plastic model arena are Thunder Tiger and Hirobo. They've worked like mad to update their designs for 2009, which like our Pantera, feature advanced polymer injection-molded construction. They're priced quite a bit above us because they have a tremendous amount of overhead, which thay are forced to charge customers for! Don't you understand that most basic tenent of life and business, e.g. there's no free lunch?

Consequently, their product costs more because they have higher overhead. Meanwhile, we've been shedding expenses and obligations because we recognized the recession early, allowing us to get down to our fighting weight in preparation for attacking the market for a bigger slice of the pie. That, pure and simple, is the reason why we can offer two models for $300 during this special - grow up and smell the coffee, this is the reality of the new economy. Those who can't adapt will be roadkill.

Make no mistake, as has been mentioned, our Oriental competitors are far bigger than us. They have more expensive real estate to pay for, more people on payroll, plus paid pilots, rep programs, a lot more advertising, etc. This costs real money and with the economy in a tailspin, it's my view they just can't get down and dirty in a price war for market share. Instead, they have to put forth mouthpieces like RAV50 to bluster and rail against common sense. Sad for them, during tough times like these, just when they're at their weakest, it's the perfect opportunity to apply pressure, e.g. try to gain market share with a price war.

Pressure comes in the form of Panteras for $200, which is rather risky because it's so close to cost. Moreover, the audacity of offering another for 50% off makes it a smokin' deal, which kicks the pressure up yet another notch! So I not only think my product is better (because it's more innovative) but because I have an excellent cost basis. It means I can afford to make you a better deal. Hence, when a prudent fellow does the math, e.g. two Panteras vs. one Titan, or three Panteras 'and' a Hyper for $10 more than a Vibe it's obvious we're out for blood.

This leaves my competitors between a rock and a hard spot. I know it, they know it and because folks aren't stupid . . . I'm betting the house you guys will act in your own interests - like Garland did. Ultimately, just as the Raptor for $249 changed the model helicopter landscape in 1998 (when Shuttle ZXs were $449 and Concepts were $429), I'm trusting folks to look out for their best interests, e.g. we respect your beer money!

Sure, a fellow can pick up two Panteras for $300 bucks, sure it's putting the squeeze on the competiton who are gonna be squealing like little girls as we march on their market share if they don't respond. Moreover, you can bet I am not going to cry crocodille tears for those caught in the squeeze. This is really no different than an old fashioned gas war between two corner stations. We can pull it off, and if this were a hand of poker, I like my hand better than theirs.

Moreover, we're not some Johnny-come-lately but instead, we have been in this market about 5 years (the Pantera is a follow on to our original debut, the Tiger). We have a good track record, e.g. a reputation for good service. What's more, a fellow can pick up the phone and speak with me directly and while we're in central-Florida and speak with a southern accent you can understand us not just for our reputation for plainly speaking what's on my mind, but because I don't speak Chinglish. Here the deal in a nutshell

The Pantera is one heck of a deal and fanboys blinded by brand loyalty will not be swayed no matter what. Instead, we're fighting for the hearts and minds of those with the good sense to recognize a deal and act. Folks who can think for themselves will give a Pantera the once over, perhaps read a few of the magazine reviews, chat with owners, and draw their own conclusions. They don't need a loudmouth to do their thinking because they can make up their own minds . . . how's that for a fact?

Ultimately, as Americans, it's not in our nature to play for second place. We're at war, a bar fight if you will, within the 50-class. Have you ever been in a bar fight? It's every man for himself, there's nothing fair about it, and if the big guy slips, you kick him in the head. My Pantera for $199.99, plus a second for 50% is me taking my best shot at catching the competition napping. And it''s working pretty good too because people aren't stupid.

Some people snigger about how I sign my name as the general manager and the janitor, but around here everybody pulls their own weight. No job is beneath them, and it's why we're so efficient we can swing for the fences with this offer. My product is for everybody with caviar dreams and a hamburger budget.

[mrcandyman]

Honestly John, I am in the market for a new heli (having loads of trouble even deciding on nitro and electric right now). I own a Century Hawk (which has been fantastic) and a E-Flite Blade CP Pro (which hasn't). I see a post topic like this and it helps me narrow down my choices. I must say that your ranting and mudslinging has made me not consider your product. Admittedly though, I can't find your product anywhere but your website, so it wasn't really a contender anyways. I live in Alberta, Canada and the market here is basically Align, Copter X, Century, Esky, Gaui, and Thunder Tiger nowadays. Perhaps if you were to breach the market better then you would sell more. I know this goes against the giant tirade you just posted as it would create more overhead for you, but it would probably be worth it. It certainly is worth it for your competitors.

Back to my original point though, seeing you bad mouth people here, bad mouth the chinese, and post wrong information about the product you are defending your product against, just doesn't instill a desire to give you my business.

[jbeech]

I can understand your point of view, and I respect it 100%. Moreover, I respect you for speaking your mind.

However, in my defense, when a fellow raises questions in public about the very viability of my business, e.g. as a 'reason' for not buying my product, his speculation is a threat, which needs an immediate (and vigorous) response. I'm sorry if you take offense but a personal attack will get a response on a personal level, it's innevitable because to turn the other cheek may work in Bible school, but this is real life and there are serious repercussions to ignoring words like his.

It's one thing to say a product is better for this or that reason, it's another to take it to the mattresses with personal inuendo and baseless speculation without factual knowledge because then we're at a whole other level of response. It may be an idle game for that fellow, but for us it's our jobs. We work hard to make the best product possible, support it well, and ensure our customers are satisfied. This comes at a cost. Price wars are a time honored way of gaining market share, and again they come at a cost.

With respect to advertising more, indeed we're increasing our budget again, as we enter the selling season, but most of our sales come from referals, which is nice because it allows us to maintain a tighter control on costs. The end result is an opportunity for more folks to try my product at a reduced financial risk.

Finally, deciding on electric versus nitro is a decision largely driven by the weather and wind. Once you get into an electric large enough to handle adverse conditions, your costs are through the roof, e.g.a T-Rex 600N is a fine electric large enough to handle the wind, a 500 however is more of a handful in the same wind, and a 450 is likely grounded. What happens though is by the time you equip a 600 electric with three packs (8S instead of the 6S as well), plus a serious charger, your costs are significanty higher versus any 50-class heli, even expensive ones.

Deciding between 50-class nitro machiens is often a matter of style of construction, e.g. plastic or composite. There are two schools of thought regarding this obviously, with our position being the plastic machines make more sense because they're easier to assemble and repair, tougher in a crash, and far more simple due to fewer parts. But, obviously, I have a dog in this hunt since my product is plastic, so you''d be wise to take what I say with a grain of salt and do your own research.

Toward that aim, to help with the research, on my website is an overview of my product, as well as magazine reviews so you can see what others think. Moreover, there are other documents like manuals and exploded views, videos, and product comparisons. Speaking of which, the competitive reviews are designed to help you find how our product stacks up against some of the competiton, e.g. a Hirobo or Align product. Surely you dont expect 'them' to tell you where there product is inferior do you?

For example, the Hirobo doesn't have bearing blocks while ours does. Similarly, do you reasonably think it's wise for us not to mention how a Pantera, as compared to a Raptor, has thrust bearings in the tail rotor grips? Thunder Tiger surely isn't going to mention this little detail, eh? Hence, it's incumbent on us to inform and educate the customer - and this is tough in light of how it's impossible to know the background of the prospective customer. E.g some know it all, some know nothing, yet we have to serve both of them . . . and everybody in between.

In closing, thanks for allowing me to respond and more importantly, for being polite in the tone of your response. Look, I'm as human as the next guy and while I try to maintain a level tone, an attack is going to be met, and a polite comment will always engender a polite response.

[Mercuriell]

I have to say I'm intrigued by this detailed discussion - I saw a Pantera in my LHS - have to have a closer look can't say I've ever seen a RAven here Down Under though - cudos gentlemen for keeping the discussion civil - if lengthy !

[RAV50]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

I have to say I'm intrigued by this detailed discussion - I saw a Pantera in my LHS - have to have a closer look can't say I've ever seen a RAven here Down Under though - cudos gentlemen for keeping the discussion civil - if lengthy !

Does your LHS have them on at a similar equivalent price? 2 for the Aussie dollar equivalent to $299.00USD ?

Or are these Korean made (?) helis distributed in Australia by an Australian distributor who has set up a network of LHS's to sell the products in your country (as is the norm) ?

[Mercuriell]

Originally Posted by RAV50

Does your LHS have them on at a similar equivalent price? 2 for the Aussie dollar equivalent to $299.00USD ?

Or are these Korean made (?) helis distributed in Australia by an Australian distributor who has set up a network of LHS's to sell the products in your country (as is the norm) ?

No way - price here varies from AU$465 - 965 each (US 325-675) so you're getting a darn good deal in the US

PS - Managed to swap an exhaust pipe for a Pantera kit so I'll do a build and we'll see !

[DeadTom]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

No way - price here varies from AU$465 - 965 each (US 325-675) so you're getting a darn good deal in the US

PS - Managed to swap an exhaust pipe for a Pantera kit so I'll do a build and we'll see !

Mercuriell,

Do you also have a Raven 50 to compare your new bird to? Just curious as I would love to hear from someone who has both products and can give an honest and unbiased opinion.
I still think that a person should purchase what will work for them.

DT / Thomas Lightfoot