Good Dual Charger ??

[KSHeli]

gonitrohobbies on eBay has the Thunder Power 820 for $229.99 plus $14.95 S&H.

[snohawk]

Originally Posted by Gregor99

The Powerlab6 will put out 1000 watts with the right power supply. With a 700 watt supply it will be putting out less. But the total watts can be misleading. You have to consider that as well as the chargers maximum current. Here's why. The Hyperion's max current is 20 amps. The Powerlabs are 40 amps.

If you are charging 3s packs you won't need a high wattage power supply to max out either charger. But the Hyperion will be putting out 252 watts. With the same packs the Powerlabs will be putting out 504 watts.

Sry, really having brain fog day .. so x 2 as fast charging ( does that include balancing ? )

How long would it take to balance something like a single Headway 38120S cell or pack of 4 once it had charged ?

snok

[Gregor99]

Many chargers balance the cells near the end of the charge. Those same chargers have very low balance current 200ma to 400ma. The Powerlabs start balancing near the middle of the charge with 1 amp of balancing power. Typically all of my packs are balanced well before they hit 4.0 volts per cell.

Once the packs hit 4.2v per cell, the charger transitions into a the constant voltage phase. The charger slowly tappers of the voltage as the charge sinks into the pack. While some balancing may be happening, this is really the CV phase not the balancing phase. This phase varies in length by termination current the charger is using. Most use C/10. The Powerlabs are adjustable. Two presets C/10 and C/20. Plus you can tune these to C/5 and C/3. I did a test once at C/3 and dropped the charge time from 16 minutes to 11 minutes. The cells were still perfectly balanced.

[Iceberg86300]

Originally Posted by Gregor99

Many chargers balance the cells near the end of the charge. Those same chargers have very low balance current 200ma to 400ma. The Powerlabs start balancing near the middle of the charge with 1 amp of balancing power. Typically all of my packs are balanced well before they hit 4.0 volts per cell.

Once the packs hit 4.2v per cell, the charger transitions into a the constant voltage phase. The charger slowly tappers of the voltage as the charge sinks into the pack. While some balancing may be happening, this is really the CV phase not the balancing phase. This phase varies in length by termination current the charger is using. Most use C/10. The Powerlabs are adjustable. Two presets C/10 and C/20. Plus you can tune these to C/5 and C/3. I did a test once at C/3 and dropped the charge time from 16 minutes to 11 minutes. The cells were still perfectly balanced.

What does the powerlab cost? Looks to have more features than the hyperion.

The hyperion chargers balance through out the charge cycle so by the time the battery is done the cells are balanced. Our you can go into balance mode and just balance a pack of you are so inclined, although I'm sure the powerlab has this feature as well.

Also, max power out of the hyperion is at max amps and max voltage, so if you have a bunch of 3s packs going in parallel you can max the amps but not utilize the 500 Watts.

I personally like the hyperion, but don't have experience with other charger s because I'm running smaller packs and don't need the ultra pow er.

Regards,

Steve

Sent from Tapatalk using my Inspire 4g through ATT (meaning it's a wonder you can see this!)

[snohawk]

Originally Posted by Gregor99

Many chargers balance the cells near the end of the charge. Those same chargers have very low balance current 200ma to 400ma. The Powerlabs start balancing near the middle of the charge with 1 amp of balancing power. Typically all of my packs are balanced well before they hit 4.0 volts per cell.

Once the packs hit 4.2v per cell, the charger transitions into a the constant voltage phase. The charger slowly tappers of the voltage as the charge sinks into the pack. While some balancing may be happening, this is really the CV phase not the balancing phase. This phase varies in length by termination current the charger is using. Most use C/10. The Powerlabs are adjustable. Two presets C/10 and C/20. Plus you can tune these to C/5 and C/3. I did a test once at C/3 and dropped the charge time from 16 minutes to 11 minutes. The cells were still perfectly balanced.

The headways max out at 6C so what is the safest charging rate that's possible using the preset ? ( I know Hyperion does 20 amps max and has better discharge rate of 80 watts compared to 50 )

Also after reading the Hyperion manual I noticed a lot of warnings about certain protocols i.e. Never connect a pack to a charger which is powered OFF.

This maybe common sense but its not for me - yet

Does Powerlabs protect against the chance of someone forgetting to do those sorts of things ?

thanks

snohawk

[Gregor99]

What does the powerlab cost?

Check out ProgressiveRc, Epbuddy and Revolectrix.com. If you get on the Revolectrix mailing list they regularly have promotions to help save you some money.

The hyperion chargers balance through out the charge cycle so by the time the battery is done the cells are balanced.

The Powerlabs do this as well. But the Powerlabs have 1 amp of balancing power. Hyperion does not provide a rating for thier balance current which probably means its 200ma to 400ma which is common for all chargers except the Powerlabs.

so if you have a bunch of 3s packs going in parallel you can max the amps but not utilize the 500 Watts.

Correct and that was the point I was making about considering the cell count of your charging scenario rather than looking at total wattage alone. On the Powerlabs you can get to 500 watts charging 3s packs. On they Hyperion it would be half that.

The headways max out at 6C so what is the safest charging rate that's possible using the preset ?

Its never good to exceed a packs max charge rating. However having more current available is very helpful when charging packs in parallel. In fact its often the case when charging in parallel that you need a little more current. Also I would recommend not buying a charger based on a single pack you own today. Packs come and go. Good chargers hang around for years. A good charger will accomodate your changing fleet and battery sizes. Many have only purchased a charger that works for them at the time of purchase. Only to quickly outgrow it within a year or two.

Also after reading the Hyperion manual I noticed a lot of warnings about certain protocols i.e. Never connect a pack to a charger which is powered OFF.

There are a safety and operational protocols to be followed. Some are recommended by the manufacture and others are part of your work flow. I have routine I aways follow. I do this mainly so I never really have to think about. When I'm at the field and chatting with folks, its easy to get distracted. Having standard routine helps ensure there are no issues.

The guidance regarding never plugging the pack into the charger when its powered off applies to all chargers. However the Powerlabs are not damaged by this. The Powerlabs in combination with the fused parallel board (the MPA) have a number of safety mechanism built-in.

Here are a few of my own personal rules

1. Never charge unattended
2. Never have a sharp knife on the workbench at the same time as a LiPo
3. Never disconnect the charging harness from the battery when a battery is connected.
4. When charging in parallel, check use cell checker to check each pack individually before and after the charge (every 5 or so cycles)
5. Never leave packs fully charged. (To the best of your ability).
6. Always store and transport LiPos in a safe container. Careful when using ammo cans as the lid can cut the wires if they are accidentally hanging out of the box.
7. Provide phyical protection for the packs during storage, charging and use in the model so that no sharp point can put pressure on the pack and the wires are not cut, yanked on, or shorted.
8. Fully discharge and dispose of packs that are suspect or you are no longer using. I consider puffed cells suspect.
9. Never purchase or sell used LiPos.
10. Use AB clips on JST-XH balance connectors to prevent strain on the balance wires.
11. Monitor the charge cycle for anomalies.
12. Monitor individual cell IR for unusual changes.
13. Periodically check packs in storage for puffing, and unusual self discharge.
14. Monitor pack temperature during the charge as well as after the flight. Respond accordingly to anomalies.

[snohawk]

Originally Posted by Gregor99

What does the powerlab cost?

Check out ProgressiveRc, Epbuddy and Revolectrix.com. If you get on the Revolectrix mailing list they regularly have promotions to help save you some money.

The hyperion chargers balance through out the charge cycle so by the time the battery is done the cells are balanced.

The Powerlabs do this as well. But the Powerlabs have 1 amp of balancing power. Hyperion does not provide a rating for thier balance current which probably means its 200ma to 400ma which is common for all chargers except the Powerlabs.

so if you have a bunch of 3s packs going in parallel you can max the amps but not utilize the 500 Watts.

Correct and that was the point I was making about considering the cell count of your charging scenario rather than looking at total wattage alone. On the Powerlabs you can get to 500 watts charging 3s packs. On they Hyperion it would be half that.

The headways max out at 6C so what is the safest charging rate that's possible using the preset ?

Its never good to exceed a packs max charge rating. However having more current available is very helpful when charging packs in parallel. In fact its often the case when charging in parallel that you need a little more current. Also I would recommend not buying a charger based on a single pack you own today. Packs come and go. Good chargers hang around for years. A good charger will accomodate your changing fleet and battery sizes. Many have only purchased a charger that works for them at the time of purchase. Only to quickly outgrow it within a year or two.

Also after reading the Hyperion manual I noticed a lot of warnings about certain protocols i.e. Never connect a pack to a charger which is powered OFF.

There are a safety and operational protocols to be followed. Some are recommended by the manufacture and others are part of your work flow. I have routine I aways follow. I do this mainly so I never really have to think about. When I'm at the field and chatting with folks, its easy to get distracted. Having standard routine helps ensure there are no issues.

The guidance regarding never plugging the pack into the charger when its powered off applies to all chargers. However the Powerlabs are not damaged by this. The Powerlabs in combination with the fused parallel board (the MPA) have a number of safety mechanism built-in.

Here are a few of my own personal rules

1. Never charge unattended
2. Never have a sharp knife on the workbench at the same time as a LiPo
3. Never disconnect the charging harness from the battery when a battery is connected.
4. When charging in parallel, check use cell checker to check each pack individually before and after the charge (every 5 or so cycles)
5. Never leave packs fully charged. (To the best of your ability).
6. Always store and transport LiPos in a safe container. Careful when using ammo cans as the lid can cut the wires if they are accidentally hanging out of the box.
7. Provide phyical protection for the packs during storage, charging and use in the model so that no sharp point can put pressure on the pack and the wires are not cut, yanked on, or shorted.
8. Fully discharge and dispose of packs that are suspect or you are no longer using. I consider puffed cells suspect.
9. Never purchase or sell used LiPos.
10. Use AB clips on JST-XH balance connectors to prevent strain on the balance wires.
11. Monitor the charge cycle for anomalies.
12. Monitor individual cell IR for unusual changes.
13. Periodically check packs in storage for puffing, and unusual self discharge.
14. Monitor pack temperature during the charge as well as after the flight. Respond accordingly to anomalies.

thanks for all that info .

I just tried installing the software on my netbook via firefox - but it wont install ( I just get
told theres a error )

Would there be any reason for this based on my following system specs and if not what could it be ?

Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3 (2600.xpsp_sp3_gdr.111025-1629)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Model: Advent 4211
BIOS: Default System BIOS
Processor: Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 1014MB RAM
Page File: 672MB used, 1768MB available

thanks,

snohawk

[Gregor99]

Originally Posted by snohawk

I just tried installing the software on my netbook via firefox - but it wont install ( I just get
told theres a error )

You may need to first install .NET 3.5 SP1

[Gregor99]

Originally Posted by Iceberg86300

What does the powerlab cost?

Revolectrix Black Friday sale!

http://www.revolectrix.com/new_appli...t11.22.12.html

[snohawk]

Originally Posted by Gregor99

You may need to first install .NET 3.5 SP1

Forget to mention that I did - sry

Will my version of windows be a problem i.e. Please note, for best results, the Charge Control Software requires Microsoft Windows 2000 or higher.

snoh

[Iceberg86300]

Originally Posted by snohawk

Forget to mention that I did - sry

Will my version of windows be a problem i.e. Please note, for best results, the Charge Control Software requires Microsoft Windows 2000 or higher.

snoh

You're good, XP is higher than 2000.

Regards,

Steve

Sent from Tapatalk using my Inspire 4g through ATT (meaning it's a wonder you can see this!)

[snohawk]

Originally Posted by Iceberg86300

You're good, XP is higher than 2000.

Regards,

Steve

Sent from Tapatalk using my Inspire 4g through ATT (meaning it's a wonder you can see this!)

so it is

I got it installed any way - unlike hyperion

thanks

snoh

[snohawk]

A friend of mine who downloaded the PL 6 software suggested a few faults that Id be interested to hear others views on. ( sry bad hands tonight so i just pasted his comments )

In his own words... ( Im not interested in lead BTW but I thought Id leave it for reference )

You can set amps (CC stage) Good! As long as it starts slowly, builds and doesent overshoot. Most do.
You can set volts (CV stage) Good (if its accurate, and not pulsed like many hobby chargers)
You Choose CV stage end point. BUT Only to 1/5th, 1/10thC, 1/20C at the lowest! SERIOUS FAIL This will damage batteries fast.

A typical figure here, that almost fully charges a lead battery, would be 100th C or 5 hours max whichever comes first, at CV stage before ending. As the hyperion now correctly does for 5 years. Odyssey recommend 100th to 1/1000th C for eg to fully charge.

And there is no float stage. Float is a CV lower voltage stage for maintainance, typically 13.5v to 13.8v which safely ends the charge at 100 percent and keeps the battery healthy.
There IS a trickle stage where you choose the current. This is wrong. This will destroy lead sealed batteries.

If you use this thing to charge powerchair batteries, the CV stage will end around 2 to 4 hours too early, leaving your batteries to rapidly become sulphated.

snoh

[Gregor99]

Only to 1/5th, 1/10thC, 1/20C at the lowest! SERIOUS FAIL This will damage batteries fast.

Most LiPo chargers use CV termination of C/10 and are not adjustable. The Powerlab has four settings which can be assigned to presets and easily accessed. Hyperion does not publish complete specs or detailed manuals. So I cannot say what its capabilities are. However I would be surprised if its CV termination was even adjustable. A termination current lower than 1/20 of the charge current is impractical for LiPos.

[desertstalker]

Originally Posted by Gregor99

However I would be surprised if its CV termination was even adjustable

You can switch between C/20, C/10 and C/5 for ichargers (slow med and fast I think they call it). No RC charger I know of is that good for Pb cells, at least in the long term.

If you are doing more than giving a lead acid a top up occasionally I would get a proper charger/maintenance unit for them. It is the sort of thing you need to leave attached all the time, so not much point using the RC charger for that.

[Gregor99]

Originally Posted by desertstalker

You can switch between C/20, C/10 and C/5 for ichargers (slow med and fast I think they call it). .

Yes I know. The posters comment was in regards to Hyperion, not iCharger. However speaking of iChargers and CV, how many users even know that the setting is there, even less use them because they are so well hidden and cumbersome to use.

On the Powerlab preset #1 is "accurate" C/20, preset #2 is "fast" C/10. Both very easy to access and many use the feature to speed up the charge or fully top off their cells without needing to know what C/10 and C/20 means. For guys like me, custom presets allow access down to C/3 along with an adjustable balance deadband for super fast charges at the same rate with no compromising in pack balancing.

[Iceberg86300]

You can adjust the termination voltage on the hyperion s, although it is more for calibration type adjust meets and it's recommended not to mess with it.

Regards,

Steve

Sent from Tapatalk using my Inspire 4g through ATT (meaning it's a wonder you can see this!)

[snohawk]

Originally Posted by Gregor99

Many chargers balance the cells near the end of the charge. Those same chargers have very low balance current 200ma to 400ma. The Powerlabs start balancing near the middle of the charge with 1 amp of balancing power. Typically all of my packs are balanced well before they hit 4.0 volts per cell.

Once the packs hit 4.2v per cell, the charger transitions into a the constant voltage phase. The charger slowly tappers of the voltage as the charge sinks into the pack. While some balancing may be happening, this is really the CV phase not the balancing phase. This phase varies in length by termination current the charger is using. Most use C/10. The Powerlabs are adjustable. Two presets C/10 and C/20. Plus you can tune these to C/5 and C/3. I did a test once at C/3 and dropped the charge time from 16 minutes to 11 minutes. The cells were still perfectly balanced.

According to my mate , the hyperions balancing power is 300ma to 3/1000th of a volt. And measures more ( .5 ) if its a long way out though

Again he brings up the fact that the software is superior and that the PLabs fail safe cant be much better than Hyperions.

Trust me the hyperions firmware, and software, and multi cell charge capability, massive firm/software development, is all tons better. But dont take my word for it, buy whatever you want! I have seen a lot of cheap chinese chargers, including a lot of 6 cell ones. I wouldnt waste my money. The hardware is much the same. Other than only doing 6 cells. The difference is in development / firm/software. I expect that this is just more of the same. Your risk.

And that anything daisy chained ( as i planned ) is just going to reduce the power of balance circuit by half.

snoh

[Iceberg86300]

I'll have to agree, hyperion is constantly putting out new firmware, and they make it available to older chargers, not just the current production ones.

Also, if you are going to put together 2 net chargers then you have 2 balance circuits so balance power went be affected.

Allerc also has some good deals right now on the net charges. 1 dual charger is easier but I would still go with 2 net chargers with the link cable.

Regards,

Steve

Sent from Tapatalk using my Inspire 4g through ATT (meaning it's a wonder you can see this!)

[snohawk]

Originally Posted by Iceberg86300

I'll have to agree, hyperion is constantly putting out new firmware, and they make it available to older chargers, not just the current production ones.

Also, if you are going to put together 2 net chargers then you have 2 balance circuits so balance power went be affected.

Allerc also has some good deals right now on the net charges. 1 dual charger is easier but I would still go with 2 net chargers with the link cable and the fact I use a netbook so I can use a battery instead.

Regards,

Steve

Sent from Tapatalk using my Inspire 4g through ATT (meaning it's a wonder you can see this!)

if it was more failsafe it would be easier but dyscalulia makes remembering sequence a nightmare, it is almost inevitable then I will make almost mistake at some point or perhaps forget something as i cant really grasp it all in logical way that sticks ( why dyscalculia is so frustrating )

so i might remember one aspect if i focus on it a lot - but as soon as I dont i forget it again because it feels so...abstract to differentiate ..

Even now although i know volts and amps are not the same i get almost sick with fear knowing i am not really aware of the difference -or cant picture it well in way like i know how a knife and fork is ..

terms like , volts - pressure - amps - flow rate just dont seem to " excite " me in the same way numbers just all appear the same even when their not..

If there was some way to isolate the Hyperion so it didnt destroy everything else it would certainly put my mind more at ease..

The software / USB issues with the groundloop almost makes the idea of warranty a joke too given the only way to 100% sort them is to mod the case ( further risk ) , how can you offer an unsafe USB connection with warranty ?

Thats like buying a new car with faulty exhaust or engine..

My mate says this down to users bad pcs, and the users themselves in which case there must be a lot of idiots - as i see threads like this everywhere

The only plus is I can think of is that Im charging LiFEPO4s which are bit safer , and most of those reports all seem connected to LIPOS mainly instead.

Even the Firmware update has risks

Risk and responsibility
Hyperion has worked hard with including fail-safe methods in the firmware update functionality,
this is to prevent that you end up with a “bricked” charger, i.e. inoperable charger due to a
failed load of firmware.

( is this a common problem ???? )


If your charger already has firmware 4.3 or later you do have this new functionality which will
allow you to recover in case of a failed load.
If your charger is running 3.9 or earlier firmware you need to be EXTRA careful.
Chargers which are made inoperable due to firmware updates by users are NOT covered
by warranty replacement policy.

What happened to the customer is always right , where do u draw the line between stupididty and simply bad product design with too many variables that can go WRONG if there so many people reporting it ?

Chargers which has been taken out of production cannot be replaced.
If you do not take the responsibility for this please do not continue with the update, note that
firmware updates are not required, they are optional to add functionality to the charger.

Which is supposed to fix the sort of issues that make updating or using the charger so volatile in the first place..

and theres more..

About USB Ports: Not all USB ports are created equal, even on the same PC.
Your USB port should
support spec 2.0 or higher. If you fail with one port, UNINSTALL the driver program, connect to a different
port (say, at back of the laptop rather than front) then re-install the driver software and try again.
Some ports have lower power rating and won’t work. Also, do NOT attach the USB adapter to a “USB
Hub”; attach it directly to the port.

In all my years using pcs I never heard of any usb not connecting because of its port power rating - though I admit Ive never used it with charger it still bothers me that I would have to go to this length just to even pass one hurdle..
snoh