3GX 5.0 Settings For 450 Class

[squibcakes]

So is it the dampers wearing causing slop?

The align DFC dampers are really hard almost like hard plastic not rubber. I'm wondering if the 4mm wide dampers would be better than the 3.8mm wide...

From my experience, when the dampers go, I get tracking related issues.

Suspiciously, the manual does warn to check /replace the grip bearings and washers every 20 flights or more often for more aggressive flight.

I always just change the radial bearings after crash but not thrust bearing or washer.

[rob221]

I find this thread very interesting and applaud all who are taking the time to read and write replys to it. I think the thread is covering so much ground and so many differing areas that some people are now confused .

1)oopitch originaly posted his settings as a guide-it must be remembered that these settings work with his heli running his speed controller,servos,batteries,radio etc as he stated thees were posted only as a guide and results may vary iff an individual tried to replicate them on his differing equipement !

2) The discussion re bec is also very interesting as we upgrade components on our helis we often forget the power requirements and then wonder why things dont work as expected
I believe that as long as we keep our helis as they came out of the box when building a super combo all systems will work adequatly.

But as soon as we change something we need to look at everything as a whole as we know changing servos can mean needing better power control for all functions to work even just changing the canopy can have an effect to the whole systen Ie heavyer or less cooling etc

We must remember just like cars they are designed by enginears but built by accountants
and so it is with our helis they are built to a price so although will fly adequatle with the components as supplied we must remember that these components may be at there limits and leave no room for the greater demands placed on them when we change components

[drmike]

I've appreciated this thread guys, thanks!

I'm still working on the last niggling issues with my 450L 6S tail, similar issues mentioned earlier in this thread. Specifically:

- A little hunting right after a quick piro or part-piro.
- A twitch of about 1/2 an inch when doing a pitch pump. The same happens in idle 1 too, so I don't think it's a head speed thing.
- As above, I also get a tail twitch when going from normal to idle1, alongside the associated rise in head speed.

So far I've had a really good look at the mechanics of the tail, and it hovers nicely enough in rate mode. I've been lowering the gain to try and remove the hunting, maybe it's working I don't know. Shall I just keep lowering it? It's 32% on my DX8 at the moment. I've got no tail wag in a normal hover. For the pitch pump issues, I'm increasing the collective precomp, but it's at 80/100 now and the issue is still there, shall I just keep going up?

Are there any other settings I should be looking at tweaking?

[squibcakes]

OK so for anybody who cares....

I pulled my 450 DFC head apart to have a look and see what is going on. (Blade flap slop)

Firstly, I'm using the newer Feathering shaft H45H006XX which does not have the stepped ends on it. That means this head uses the larger Thrust bearings.

This is where I found that I had actually assembled the head incorrectly at some stage since a crash. With this feathering shaft the thrust bearing goes inside, the radial bearings on the outside. It also uses different spacer washer. After doing this, there wasn't much improvement in slop. I even fit new Thrust bearings and F shaft for the heck of it.

I then replaced the DFC hard dampers and collar washer. This improved the slop a lot, actually, the new dampers are very tight to slide onto the shaft. This really surprised me as the dampers didn't exhibit any tracking issues or show wear when rocking the the grips up and down on each side.

When I put the head on, I found there was still some slop in the head block on the main shaft. Align have released a new head H45190 which has two additional screws tighten down the head and prevent movement on the shaft.

So now the head is really tight no slop at all.

I'll probably give 5.0 another go now, but 3.1 fly's really well so mat=be I wont.. ;-)

As for drmikes tail twitch - did you set rudder delay to zero?

Check that the tail ball link doesn't have any play on the ball. Sound like maybe not enough rudder gain using 3gx software. Get that right for overall tail gain then tweak with the radio.

For the rudder gain - I set up high +80% in radio until i get mad tail oscillation - back it down a few % to stop the mad oscillation. Do some FFF and into the wind - If i get a bit of tail quiver in flight land - and turn down a few more % until there is no quiver in FFF.

Do you fly flat throttle curve? My experience that is better then V-Curve for electrics.

[000pitch]

I think there's too many variables to recommend a V curve to you. Your voltage, pitch range, blade length, battery discharge rate, ESC all play a part in how power is applied and maintained under pitch loads.

On the box stock 450L 6s with 45C batteries- I've been using 90 88.5 88.5 88.5 90
The crazy torque keeps the rpm constant around midstick, and the extra throttle at the ends are because I use 14 degree of collective. When it digs down into the deep pitch- I have that extra throttle to keep the RPMs up.

I've really been hammering V5.0 lately, crossed into 72 hours on my flight timer. My rudder lock gain is now at 100, Aileron gain pot is bottomed out, Precomps are at 90 across the board... I gotta make a video of how fast I can backwards loop this thing. Its disgustingly fast. The 360mm blades are singing and barking the entire way around the loop... backwards... with a cross wind blowing! The 3GX just keeps it tracking and won't let the tail blow out. I can feel it correcting and intervening to keep things in line. I've never been able to loop that hard backwards.. with any prior version. Not even close. I did about ten loops and was smiling ear to ear to see and hear that thing screaming with such control. Call me crazy.. but I think 5.0 is manipulating the throttle too. I know its all over the swashplate.. but it seems like it retards the throttle at times too.

I can't say it enough... tuning make or breaks the 3GX. Once I got the precomps locked in... the helicopter is so much more stable. Especially the yaw precomp! You may want to turn up your tail gyro or rudder gain lock.. but nope- the yaw precomp will solve that blowout on pitch pumps the right way.

I did find some hard limits of the 3GX though. Like if you are WFO throttle and hammering it hard into a piro type flip at high speed- the entire system can basically blow out lol. Like the helicopter just breaks free and slips out of control. This is only at the extreme though. I think the motor bogs- then the gyro blows out- so it might just be my old and weak batteries. But it basically lets go and stops thinking for a second and sort of slips off into no mans land. I don't have any more gain on my AIL pot... so I reached the redline there.

Other than that, this thing has surpassed even my own praises already sung.
Glad to hear this thread has had positive results.
Ill post some big air ballistic videos of V5.0 on my 450L-- its mean.
I can say wholeheartedly that V5.0 has made my skills advance exponentially. Its just so easy to fly it hard.

And thanks Drmike- you're exactly right- I posted them so people can reference how far the parameters can go. I think we are often afraid to turn things up and mess with it too much. But doing so, can be a good thing if your setup requires it. Especially tuning the precomps.

[drmike]

Thanks both. I had some good flights yesterday, the tail is almost fine now. My collective precomp is now at 90, I may go even higher, the twitchiness when you climb fast seems to have reduced a lot. I've also started tweaking the ELE gain due to a bit of porpoising into the wind. I'm now at 10 o'clock, but it seems stable enough so I may reduce a little more.

What's surprised me most about this 450L is just how quick it is. You said it yourself 000pitch, but this thing is seriously fast. I have a 550 which is set up fairly sedately, and this outpaces it really easily. The main issue is I'm flying too big, because I'm used to the bigger model - a couple of seconds flight and I can barely see it! It's a lot of fun though, it does giant loops without any issues.

[000pitch]

Agreed. Its one nasty little helicopter. I wouldn't ever get rid of it. Its just too fun to fly. I'm in the works to custom build a 7s Dominator with the KDE 450xf.

I've been getting 40-80 minutes of flight time per day on my 6s 450L and upon further testing the loop speed limits- I came to a realization. When the 3GX totally blows out- its actually because the motor bogs down or the servos themselves give out. Unfortunately I can't use my headset to film this thing in big air 3D. Its just too fast to follow with my clumsy head mount camera.

You'll just have to trust me when I say I loop it backwards so hard and so fast with the blades screaming a long, loud bark- that the motor bogs down from the G forces and the servos just give out. I discovered this by using different batteries. The 1450mah battery will bog down and blow out in hard loops. The 1250mah will not. Its the weight of inertia as the helicopter is looping that bogs the motor and weakens my servos. Not the 3GX giving out.

So my point, is that I'm quite sure I've hit the redline of my DS430M servos and 460mx motor doing these loops. If I got stronger batteries, motor and servos- I'm quite confident the 3GX could rip even harder backwards loops.

And most of all, the tail will hold relatively perfect lock the entire way. The aileron may need a slight correction... but again, I think that's my servos fault. If I had some DS95s on there, it probably would hold perfect without any input.

This was never possible on 4.0
4.0 will let the collective do anything you tell it to. So if you over do it- the tail will blow out with fury. 5.0 is more like an interaction between you and a computer. You aren't flying the helicopter- you are telling the computer what to do and it will decide when and how to do it.

This is why I said it could set a new standard... Its pretty high tech for one of the oldest FBL controllers on the market. Not too shabby Align.

Also wanted to point out, I'm getting this great tail lock with the DS525 servo on the tail. Which is a pretty average servo. 40 bucks. Its not even a dedicated rudder servo. Its a cyclic servo from the Trex 500. Basically no tail wag even in FFF into the wind.

[Parakos]

An update on my issue... I noticed a sale on the GT5.2 (same gyro I'm using on my Goblin with great success) and decided to try it on my 450L. At first I had a lot of wobbling and tail flapping, but after turning down the gains on the GT5.2 I can finally start to enjoy the 450L! I still have some swash wobbling during spoolup just before it reaches target rpm which points to some mechanical issues. Anyway at least I can fly it now.

[Heli$]

I switched back to 4.0 from 5.0. I was getting a lot of servo twitching at rest and in flight. It would be like the heli would jump like a scared cat for a millisecond. It felt like a power loss for a millisecond but nothing browned out. I was also getting un commanded rolling in aileron or elevator with 5.0.

I replaced many components and the set up is great. The only thing I didn't do was replace tail bearings and tail gears. I even got a new more powerful esc.

Anyhow, I'm back on 4.0 and even the tail is locked in and everything back to normal.

Maybe I'll try 5.0 again after replacing all the tail bearings/gears this winter.

I had to give up on 5.0 cuz I was spending so much time and money trying to get it to work. I want my 450 to be easy and cheap to repair.

[000pitch]

Good insights Heli$.

I'm always quick to defend the 3GX... but not when it comes to vibration sensitivity. This was probably its downfall as a whole.

Many other FBL systems clearly note in their advertisements how their sensors are not easily affected by vibrations. The 3GX is also pretty old, so its fair to assume they learned a lot from Align's experiences.

I can say flat out, that I will not even mess with the 3GX unless I know the helicopter is basically mechanically perfectly sound and true. Otherwise, get out your bottle of whiskey. You'll need a drink.

[Heli$]

I guess the only other thing I can think of that I didn't do would be to setup a new model in my transmitter and then install 5.0. Maybe when I get more whiskey, I'll give it a shot.

[000pitch]

Ya know... a little voodoo can work miracles. Such as resetting on a new model data or reflashing the 3GX with 12 o clock gains. These things should not have a logical effect, but I've fixed dead servo channels that way... or erratic flight controls. Electronics can act weird after you smash them into the ground at 50 mph. Kinda like our brains would.

A solid sweep of new drivetrain parts is always my magic cure. Its never failed me... and you're helicopter will fly so smooth that it will be a whole new experience of joy and appreciation. Money well spent.

[Heli$]

Yup, I'll try to install 5.0 again with a brand new model in my transmitter. May take a couple days.

I have re-flashed with pots at 12 o'clock and everything is brand new except tail bearings/gears, dfc arm links. Still had issues though.

Keep our fingers crossed!

[000pitch]

http://www.aligntrexstore.com/T-REX-...7X_p_2885.html

I was waiting for this exact kit.. and it came in like two weeks.

Jesus, Align is really on it lately. Just dropping bombs for products. The 700 Top Dominator? Love the 850mx and the 160amp CC.... Finally!!!! You can't beat that heli if you got 1500 bucks burning a hole in your pocket.

I wanted the speed fuselage for the 450 before the 500... But maybe they had reason to test it on that model first.

Anyway, I'll be interested to fly the 3GX back to back with the new Gpro. Giving me a baseline to see and feel improvements with the new processor. Sweet.

[paul nathalie]

I'm running 3gx on v5 on a super smooth warp 360, no vibes anywhere, head gains are now maxed out , flys great, really locked in !

[rb30cory]

Originally Posted by 000pitch

http://www.aligntrexstore.com/T-REX-...7X_p_2885.html

I was waiting for this exact kit.. and it came in like two weeks.

Jesus, Align is really on it lately. Just dropping bombs for products. The 700 Top Dominator? Love the 850mx and the 160amp CC.... Finally!!!! You can't beat that heli if you got 1500 bucks burning a hole in your pocket.

I wanted the speed fuselage for the 450 before the 500... But maybe they had reason to test it on that model first.

Anyway, I'll be interested to fly the 3GX back to back with the new Gpro. Giving me a baseline to see and feel improvements with the new processor. Sweet.

Damn that's a hell of a deal. I just bought my 450L 6 weeks ago from them with the 3gx and a battery for $512... anyone contact them to see if the 3GX can be traded in for the GPRO?

I have to say my heli flies pretty nice right now, but the thought of a new GPRO with blue tooth etc has me turned on...

[000pitch]

I bet you could turn it in for a discounted exchange. Tim@alignrcusa.com might hook you up if you ask nicely.

Pretty excited for the Bluetooth Gpro as well. I am OCD with adjustments and tuning at the field with my phone is just too cool. Also hoping and expecting the Gpro to keep up with hard 3D. The old 3GX has served me well, but I'm ready for something more accurate and agile.

I believe in the 3GX so much, I won't get rid of it.. just keep it for my floaty 3D 450.

[FliHi]

Originally Posted by 000pitch

Ya know... a little voodoo can work miracles. Such as resetting on a new model data or reflashing the 3GX with 12 o clock gains. These things should not have a logical effect, but I've fixed dead servo channels that way... or erratic flight controls. Electronics can act weird after you smash them into the ground at 50 mph. Kinda like our brains would.

A solid sweep of new drivetrain parts is always my magic cure. Its never failed me... and you're helicopter will fly so smooth that it will be a whole new experience of joy and appreciation. Money well spent.

+1

[Lioon]

000pitch, can you post your final settings all together? Or update the first post.
Thanks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Drivelayer]

I know this is an old post but I wanted some input on what your flight condition control setting is. On my TRex 700N it is at 20 and flight is so smooth but on my 550 I have not been able to cure the climb out from FFF or abrupt pitch changes on a loop.. everything else it great just FFF. I had it at 65 and I really felt I was not flying the heli, I was just asking it to flip and roll. at 20 it flies really nice except for FFF and large loops


Thanks