direct drive motor 450 pro cp / fp

[hochoco]

Originally Posted by Roving Falcon

Hey guys,

thats realy awesome!!!

Now i have a question. What do you think about the power of this motor?
Has it enough power to be build in a 450 scale fuselage like Airwolf and 4 bladed head?
Normaly it works in a Funcopter (1300g/2,2lbs?)

So, whats your opinion?


Greetings from Austria

Lou,

I have tried a 4-blade configuration (using a Copter-X rigid head) on this frame and motor combination with a 3S lipo. It flew well and I believe that putting a fuselage will work fine with no problem.

I'm sure Helihankster will chime in to share his thoughts and experience. He has tried using a 4S lipo setup to give it more power.

I highly recommend the frame from JohnnyCat500. I'm sure you will enjoy it as much as we do.

Best regards,

HAROLD

[HELIHANKSTER]

I concur with Harold, for scale flying this frame and motor combination on 3s should have no problem lifting the extra 400g+/- of a scale fuselage…especially if using a multi rotor head. If by chance there is some motor bogging associated with adding the weight of the fuselage, going 4s should eliminate this issue for sure.

On a side note, for me the Himax 250kv motor is truly amazing and without it I don’t think there would be a DD 450. But being direct drive without gearing, it does have its limits. Even on 4s, I’m only getting a headspeed of around 2700rpm. For any kind of hard 3D I would expect you would at least want around 3000rpm or better. I have seen videos of funcopters running on 6s, but I really think upping the cell count isn’t the answer. Weight and tail speed start to becoming real issues. On my yellow DD CP450 which is running the 50T front drive pulley the tail ratio is 4.54 to 1. On 4s with a headspeed of 2700rpm the tail speed is 12258rpm. Maybe I’m wrong, but to me that’s pushing the cheap 450 clone tail assembly. If my calculations are right, going 5s would put the DD motor headspeed around 3300rpm and if still using the 50T pulley the tail speed would be 14982rpm. Even going with the Beam 46T drive pulley the tail speed would be about 13800rpm on 5s. The solution is simple right, just use a lower T count drive pulley to get the tail rpm down. Problem is where to find the right cheap over the counter drive pulley that will fit a 5mm shaft. I’m thinking a 39T pulley would be about right if running 5s. Wow…I’m really rambling on, sorry. Anyway, all I wanted to say was I think 4s with longer blades that require less headspeed is just enough to make this bird a decent sport flier.

[Roving Falcon]

Thanks a lot for answering

This is all i "wanted" to hear.
I dont know if its so easy for me to purchase the frame, you guys using.(because i have to pay customs and have to pick it up from somewhere in Austria)
Maybe i can make one of my self

Also looking for a 4bladed tailrotor, so theres no need for much rpm on it.

Thanks a lot and greetings to the USA from Europe

Lou

[hochoco]

Originally Posted by HELIHANKSTER

....The solution is simple right, just use a lower T count drive pulley to get the tail rpm down. Problem is where to find the right cheap over the counter drive pulley that will fit a 5mm shaft. I’m thinking a 39T pulley would be about right if running 5s. Wow…I’m really rambling on, sorry. Anyway, all I wanted to say was I think 4s with longer blades that require less headspeed is just enough to make this bird a decent sport flier.

Helihankster, this is a 40T drive drive pulley that you may want to try: http://www.cnchelicopter.com/servlet...NC-Belt/Detail
You will just need to drill the 3mm hole to fit the 5mm shaft.
What do you think?

[HELIHANKSTER]

Nice find Harold! Never even thought about drilling out the hdx300 40T pulley to 5mm. Ummm…I got to say this find has the grey matter between my ears smoking. I’ll have to check with ATC first, has he is one of the leading experts on the multiplex funcopter and confirm that the Himax motor can be run safely on 5s and 6s. If so, I think there’s still hope in making a serious 3D machine out of the DD setup. This could turn out to be super sweet. If we can get the DD motor up over 3000+rpm safely, there would be no need to stretch to use longer blades, as standard 325mm blades should work fine at that headspeed. If ATC gives the green light on running the DD motor on 5s, there’s a strong possibly I will be ordering another frame kit from JC in the near future.

[AtTheCross]

sorry, can't give a green light on the 5s/6s set up, i've only seen one guy in germany do 6s and i don't know if he runs 6s on a regular basis.

[HELIHANKSTER]

Originally Posted by AtTheCross

sorry, can't give a green light on the 5s/6s set up, i've only seen one guy in germany do 6s and i don't know if he runs 6s on a regular basis.

10-4, thanks for the info bud
It would have been nice though to hear that a bunch of German guys were running 6s in their funcopters and were having success. But the more I think about it, couldn’t really compare a fixed pitch funcopter running 6s to a collective pitch 450 running 6s anyways. Maybe it’s safer just to stay with 4s…would really hate to burn out a $50.00 motor.

[Roving Falcon]

Originally Posted by AtTheCross

sorry, can't give a green light on the 5s/6s set up, i've only seen one guy in germany do 6s and i don't know if he runs 6s on a regular basis.

I guess i know that guy. Hes flying his FC with 6s with a Roxxy 960-6. Also he uses a selfmade Rigid: 2 AssanGA250 on the swashplate, Rex500 tail and a belt.

He made a serialwiring(is that right?) of two 3s.

He said that the motor is just lukewarm.

Hope this is helpfull.


(P.S. sorry for my english, its not that good)

[helihaven]

full 4mm spindles with M3 bolts at the end...for his 385/395mm blades and the Rave 450 grips...

[hochoco]

Originally Posted by helihaven

full 4mm spindles with M3 bolts at the end...for his 385/395mm blades and the Rave 450 grips...

Thanks so much, Helihaven!
That's another excellent work, as I expected :-)

If you do not know Helihaven yet, just look at his postings and you will have an idea on how talented and ingenious he is, just like the other people on this thread.
I have been impressed with his stretched 450 (running 6s setup) projects, as well as the custom frame he is developing on the Trex 600 forum.

Anyway, he custom-built this head block since I want to experiment with a 4-bladed head using longer 385mm blades on the Direct Drive 450 Pro w/ a stretched direct drive torque tube tail. He recommended to use the blade grips from a Rave 450 which will accept the larger root of the longer blades. The 4mm spindle will make it robust. Hopefully I can get all the parts soon so I can share the modifications on this thread. Stay tuned...

BTW, this is the thread that started my collaboration with Helihaven:
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=419011

HAROLD

[HELIHANKSTER]

Originally Posted by Roving Falcon

I guess i know that guy. Hes flying his FC with 6s with a Roxxy 960-6. Also he uses a selfmade Rigid: 2 AssanGA250 on the swashplate, Rex500 tail and a belt.

He made a serialwiring(is that right?) of two 3s.

He said that the motor is just lukewarm.

Hope this is helpfull.


(P.S. sorry for my english, its not that good)

Yes Lou, this information is very helpful. His FC on 6s videos are the ones I remember seeing. Hearing his motor was only lukewarm after a flight give me the courage to go ahead and try a quick spin up test on 6s tonight. I already had a series plug made up so I just grabbed two 3s 2200mah and give it a go. Well, all I can say is wow…talk about a power increase. This wasn’t a true test by any means, as there’s no rotor head or tail blades on my current DD build, but I can still tell the different in power. Also I didn’t give full power as I did not want to over rev the motor or blow out something in the tail. The test was quick and even though the run time on 6s was short, the motor stayed cool to the touch, which to me is very promising.

I went ahead and video the 6s test. Unfortunately I don’t think the video does the 6s test any justice…it’s one of those things where you have to be there in person to see the different.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0XwETlL1yw[/ame]

[HELIHANKSTER]

Originally Posted by helihaven

full 4mm spindles with M3 bolts at the end...for his 385/395mm blades and the Rave 450 grips...

Awesome work helihaven., that is some serious talent

[hochoco]

Originally Posted by HELIHANKSTER

Yes Lou, this information is very helpful. His FC on 6s videos are the ones I remember seeing. Hearing his motor was only lukewarm after a flight give me the courage to go ahead and try a quick spin up test on 6s tonight. I already had a series plug made up so I just grabbed two 3s 2200mah and give it a go. Well, all I can say is wow…talk about a power increase. This wasn’t a true test by any means, as there’s no rotor head or tail blades on my current DD build, but I can still tell the different in power. Also I didn’t give full power as I did not want to over rev the motor or blow out something in the tail. The test was quick and even though the run time on 6s was short, the motor stayed cool to the touch, which to me is very promising.

I went ahead and video the 6s test. Unfortunately I don’t think the video does the 6s test any justice…it’s one of those things where you have to be there in person to see the different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0XwETlL1yw

Great job, Helihankster!
Please PM me your address so I can send you my spare 40T pulley to allow you to test fly the 6S setup :-)
Do you think you will need a shorter belt to use the smaller pulley?

[HELIHANKSTER]

Originally Posted by hochoco

Great job, Helihankster!
Please PM me your address so I can send you my spare 40T pulley to allow you to test fly the 6S setup :-)
Do you think you will need a shorter belt to use the smaller pulley?

No need to send me your spare pulley, as I have one on the way. I order me up one on Tuesday after you brought it to my attention. There is a little room left to slot the boom mount holes towards the back of the frame, but not sure if it would be enough to make the belt work or not. Doesn’t matter because once I finish this build I’m going to ask JC to make me another frame kit that will incorporate the stock Pro boom mount back into the design. That puppy’s soul purpose will be to test the limits of the Himax DD motor. I’m thinking I’ll start with a 5s 1800mah battery and go from there.

What do you guys think of this battery to start with. It’s only about 60g heavier than the 4s nano-tech I’ve been using.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=9454

[helihaven]

Harold, they are done. I'll mail em out in the morning. the feathering shafts are exactly 51mm and 63mm, and use an M3 x 6mm bolt.

Had to make a few concessions with the 4 bladed head assembly. so what I wound up doing is leaving you enough room to make the final fit with your grips. There is just too much room for error,ande I'd hate for it all to be wasted and have to redo it.

My Rave grips measured 17.25mm fron the inside radial bearing to the outside of the thrust washer. so, i screwed each spindle into the head block fairly tight, and installed an M3 bolt at the end and tightened it, and made sure you had 17.50mm between the base of the bolt head and the 5mm washer...

short of making the entire spindle assemblies one piece, it was the best i could do my friend.

[hochoco]

Originally Posted by helihaven

Harold, they are done. I'll mail em out in the morning. the feathering shafts are exactly 51mm and 63mm, and use an M3 x 6mm bolt.

Had to make a few concessions with the 4 bladed head assembly. so what I wound up doing is leaving you enough room to make the final fit with your grips. There is just too much room for error,ande I'd hate for it all to be wasted and have to redo it.

My Rave grips measured 17.25mm fron the inside radial bearing to the outside of the thrust washer. so, i screwed each spindle into the head block fairly tight, and installed an M3 bolt at the end and tightened it, and made sure you had 17.50mm between the base of the bolt head and the 5mm washer...

short of making the entire spindle assemblies one piece, it was the best i could do my friend.

Helihaven, looks wonderful!
The Rave grips and thrust bearings arrived today :-)
Looks like I will be busy in the coming days. I'll keep you posted.

Many thanks,

HAROLD

[HELIHANKSTER]

Made a lot of progress on the belt-TT DD CP450 last weekend and finished her up last night. Everything was going good, it only took me two test hops to get the CX-3X1000 unit dialed in. On the third flight I was cruising around about halfway into the flight when I notice the tail starting to let loose. I brought the bird in as quickly as I could, but about three feet out the ground the tail total let loose. Lucky for me I was that close to the ground and was able to land with no damage. A quick inspection revealed the belt had stretched and I’m not talking about a little stretching, I’m talking about a lot. I can only assume the torque from hard pitch pumping was just too much for the belt. All I could think was…man Hank, you’re really not having any luck with belts these days.

I do have another belt I can try, as I ordered both a 144 and a 142 pitch belt when I made my order. It’s a tad shorter, but I think I can make it work. The problem is, it’s made out of the same material (Urethane/Kevlar) as the first belt, so more than likely its going to turn to butter also and I might not be so lucky when it does.

Sooo…Need some help guys
These are the three material choices SDP give me when I entered in the pitch size for the belt.
Material/Tension Member (cords)
1. Neoprene/Fiberglass
2. Polyurethane/Polyester
3. Urethane/Kevlar

Knowing nothing about belts, I went with Urethane/Kevlar because I assume Kevlar cords would be the strongest. Well I’m thinking I assumed wrong, so my question is. Out of these materials which do you think would be the strongest? Also if anyone know what material our standard helicopter belts are made of, that information would be much appreciated as I would start looking for a belt manufacture that offers the belt size I need in that material.

This pic should give you an idea of how much the belt stretched.


Here’s the finish bird (still have to paint the canopy) waiting patiently for a new belt.

[johnnycat500]

Lookin good HH. Is there any way you could made a idler pulley for it .

[HELIHANKSTER]

Good idea JC, but unfortunately I don’t think there’s enough room to put a idler pulley setup in between the two drive pulleys do to the location of the belt tension window and the front lower boom mount hole. I think if the front bottom boom mount hole was lower on the frame it would be doable.

[HELIHANKSTER]

Wasn’t looking forward to changing the belt. figured it would be a real pain in the a$$, but surprising it wasn’t as bad as I thought. The picture makes it look scary, but it was only a 15 minute job.


New/old belt comparison…yikes, remember I just had three flights on the old belt.


See not bad, just need to put the side frame back on and will be good to go…well good to go for a flight or two. Just want to get her in the air to shoot a video and then will park her till I find a replacement belt.