Buy and build Logo 800 Xxtreme

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The manual calls for 5 min epoxy only on the tail control rod ends. Does that make anyone else nervous? The torque tube ends get epoxy too but they also have a bolt through them.

I was thinking I'd run a bead of CA around the back seam just for good measure. Or should I just use more epoxy around it?

Torque tube is fine, with the bolt as you mentioned, just build it as described in the manual.

With regards to the tail P/R, no it doesn't make me "noivice"....

Using masking tape, "rough up" the CF ends with some 220 grit....and then, with all adhesives....take the time to use a solvent of your choice...to remove the grubby, greasing fingerprints...to ensure the adhesive bonds properly to the surfaces.

Of more concern, is to ensure that the P/R link stud is fully threaded into its plastic housing....at both ends.....

The method I use, which is best for me, is to thread the stud at the servo end ..first....measuring the link depth to ensure the stud has equal depth as the ball link end...and I mean the P/R end "butts" up to the ball link end.....

Next, thread the tail rotor adapter stud into to the P/R end....measured as in the above
fully 1/2 way threaded.....bear with me now....

Thread the ball link on...almost all the way...

The last thing to do....is to epoxy the P/R link assy. end on to the CF pushrod.

With the electronics such that you can center the tail servo, simply measure the P/R delta such that you have a "touch"(2 degs for me) of tail pitch to counter the torque of your main rotor....

If your setup indicates your P/R length is a touch short, wad up a piece of paper napkin and stuff it in....a length shim, if you will.

Too long, cut it down to size.

Once the length is in acceptable link adjustment range, rough and clean the P/R surface....

And, using the toothpick method, stuff the link full of epoxy....one epoxy batch at a time....per link end....

The weak point in the P/R is the P/R adapter link...IMO.

Don't ask how I know......

My main point to to use adjust the CF P/R length to ensure that the adapter threads are fully engaged before applying epoxy....within link adjustment range.

And, while you're at it, install a second P/R guide.....for "anti-harmonic-flapping"...

Which I will attempt to describe...

Not knowing his motivation, somebody mounted his camera(long before Go_Pros)...

~2006/7....pointing towards the tail......

The videos were posted on YouTube.....

What the video demonstrated was that the tail boom supports were exhibiting "classic" examples of the "Fourier Theory".....which, at that time, lead to the tail boom support "guides"....remember them?

Any "flapping" is unacceptable.....

So I used an extra guide....so what?

Cheers

[Mark17]

Outstanding. Sounds like a well thought out plan of attack. I will be doing this today. I sure didn't want to move forward without being confident in any one part of the build.

Thanks again

[guyguerra]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

Also, with regards to your ESC, I didn't use the adapter harness for 14S in order to minimize contact resistances by eliminatiing the extra EC5 connectors when using the harness.


FWIW

Hi EEngineer, I believe you helped me out about a year and a half ago on combining balance connectors of an 8 S setup. It was a great help. Would you mind posting a picture (or describe it, if easier) of your battery wiring? Not being in your field I wouldn't know the resistance difference that 3 EC 5's add in a harness, but it's bothering when your batteries get warm, or warmer than they could be.
Thanks,
Guy

[Chippie13]

Hi @EEngineer

You mention that the left hand antenna of the satellite receiver is not the main antenna and that both are mostly equal reception wise.

If you would be willing could you please be a little more specific for my understanding as I am sure you would not just make the statement without being sure about it yourself.

For ease of reference here is the link again where it is mentioned that the main antenna is on the left side. The picture is more or less in the middle of the article.

http://www.archeli.com.au/forums/sho...d.php?t=136223

I obviously don't want to post videos mentioning facts that are not actually true

Thanks again for everyone's input!!!

[Mark17]

Torque tube and push rods are done and I believe bomb proof, well, you know.
Thanks EE

Now I now the answer to this already, but here goes. The frame came together and the 25 or so bolts on each side seemed to be already tight and have loctite on them. Have use guys pulled every bolt, cleaned it and re loctited all 50+?

And if so how are you guys cleaning bolts that have been loctited already?

I've just been pulling them and pinching them with a rag soaked with alcahol and twisting them through my fingers with the nut driver.

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by Chippie13

Hi @EEngineer

You mention that the left hand antenna of the satellite receiver is not the main antenna and that both are mostly equal reception wise.

If you would be willing could you please be a little more specific for my understanding as I am sure you would not just make the statement without being sure about it yourself.

For ease of reference here is the link again where it is mentioned that the main antenna is on the left side. The picture is more or less in the middle of the article.

http://www.archeli.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=136223

I obviously don't want to post videos mentioning facts that are not actually true

Thanks again for everyone's input!!!

Hey, Chippie

I knew that you would refer me to that archeli article......

Which is where this myth originated.

Instead, I refer to the Cypress Semiconductor spec. data.....as they designed and built the radio IC that is used in these remote satellite RXs.

Here's the link:

http://www.cypress.com/?docID=42618

Referring to Page 6 of 72, pin #11 is RFp and pin #13 is RFn....with pin #10 being RFbias....and pin # 12 is a ground pin.

RFp and RFn are the RF differential signal pins to and from the H-Stub dipole antenna.

"to and from" the antenna is describing that the antenna(and the radio transceiver) both transmits and receives because the radio is a WiFi Transceiver.

Open one up(be careful...it's very easy to break the case)....and check for signal continuity between either the RFp or the RFn pins to the ground pin.

You will find no continuity.....completely contrary to what the archeli site says.

And more importantly, completely contrary to what Cypress Semi says.

While the archeli article has some good info, the section of "active" vs "passive" elements is not true.

They go on and on about a conventional dipole antenna system, neglecting to mention that their dipole antenna analysis is based on.....basically a CB frequency dipole...27MHz.

Which is where their analysis fails.....because a satellite RX operates in the 2.4 GHz frequency range.

Not to mention...why in heck would a manufacturer waste time and money to spot a PCB pad to attach a wire that hangs in the breeze...for no reason. Or fabricate a wafer in that manner.

At the frequency range the H-Stub dipole operates, a very slight PCB trace length distance differential to the RFp and RFn pins can introduce a slight relative phase shift.....resulting in a different antenna gain pattern(more gain lobes) than that of the above mentioned CB antenna dipole.

These additional gain lobes.....combined with mouting the 2 sats with their antennas orthogonal to each other.....provides more consistent signal reception(and transmission).

Especially when used for our application....a constantly moving target relative to your TX.

So, to conclude, it doesn't matter which sat. antenna element is "shaded" by the frame.

Mounting with the caveat that you describe won't hurt anything......but....it won't help anything either....as I explained above.

FWIW

BTW, your build is looking great....

Another thing I did, was to order some extra edge guard, and lined the edges of the swash cutout in the canopy...using CA carefully applied from the inside of the canopy.

On all my Mikados, when manipulating the canopy off/on for battery changes, I ended up chipping the
canopy paint in the swash cutout.

Somebody had the bright idea to do this, I think Lukas, and it works like a champ...no more paint chipping.

I retro-fitted this mod to all my Miks.

Cheers

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by guyguerra

Hi EEngineer, I believe you helped me out about a year and a half ago on combining balance connectors of an 8 S setup. It was a great help. Would you mind posting a picture (or describe it, if easier) of your battery wiring? Not being in your field I wouldn't know the resistance difference that 3 EC 5's add in a harness, but it's bothering when your batteries get warm, or warmer than they could be.
Thanks,
Guy

Hi, Guy

From your ESC, connect the pos. cable to the pos. of one EC5....connect the neg. cable to the neg. of another EC5....these two EC5s will mate to the two EC5s on your two main batts. that your want to connect in series.

Next, connect a short cable, from the neg. of the EC5 from ESC pos.......
to the pos. of the EC5 from ESC neg.

Now, when you plug in your two main batts., the ESC will see the series voltage....and you have used one less EC5.

The EC5s, or any connector for that matter, can be electrically modeled as a very small resistor.....and we want to minimize any resistance in the power cabling for better performance.

Consider this:

If your power connector's contact resistance is 1 milliohm(1/1000 of an ohm)....
and your drawing 100A, the power dissipated in thee connector itself is 10W,
as power = A * A * resistance.

That's a lot of wasted power.

A cold solder joint can act in the same manner.....and in some cases, dissipate enough power(in the form of heat) to actually melt the solder.

EC5s have better contact resistance specs...was just using easy numbers as an example.

Checking your motor temp. and ESC temp. and battery temp. is a good thing....and if your main batt connectors are warm after a flight....you might have a solder issue.

FWIW

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Torque tube and push rods are done and I believe bomb proof, well, you know.
Thanks EE

Now I now the answer to this already, but here goes. The frame came together and the 25 or so bolts on each side seemed to be already tight and have loctite on them. Have use guys pulled every bolt, cleaned it and re loctited all 50+?

And if so how are you guys cleaning bolts that have been loctited already?

I've just been pulling them and pinching them with a rag soaked with alcahol and twisting them through my fingers with the nut driver.

That's what I do, Mark.

You can also use your Xacto to chip between the grooves if they're really gunked up.

[Chippie13]

Hi @EEngineer

Thanks for the info I will mention it in my last build video that I will be doing in the next day or so.

@Mark

Yep I also pull each one and wipe with paper towel. Got hold of the paper towel used in public bathrooms usually as it is great for everything from cleaning up grease to Loctite to home made fries One of those items I doubt I will ever be able to live without.

Thanks for the positive comments on the build and all the input as it is invaluable and the edge guard around the canopy swash hole is also so simple yet so brilliant.

The tax man was very kind to me this year and just received my returns so batteries here I come....well at least in the next week or so just have to pay the bills first. I hate responsibility it is so uncalled for in this pastime.

Cheers

[EEngineer]

Hey, Chip.

"Hi @EEngineer

Thanks for the info I will mention it in my last build video that I will be doing in the next day or so."

It's not worth it.....because no one can test this, and can only speculate.. for the most part...

Your build is great....other than the sat. antenna orthogonality...you'll be ok.

Don't mention me....I didn't design the 69103...rather mention Cypress Semi...as they are the ultimate experts.

This is not an issue of "you said..she said...and everyone chimes in", but rather a matter of physics.

FWIW

[Mark17]

I understand Chip. It's nice to light at the end of the tunnel. I'm at that point too, I only need flight packs now. Seeing as how I'm going with the 8s packs it's going to be a big hit. I know it will be worth it when it's all done and in the air.

[EEngineer]

Can you post your weights?

Mine is at 15lbs, when I throttle up for takeoff.

[Chippie13]

Hi @EEngineer mine is 5kg or 11lbs but only thing still missing are main packs so just add weight of your packs to see what mine would be.

My receiver pack is in already so if your using a separate lipo for receiver then don't add that one.

I am going to try and maiden tomorrow on 12s as I will only receive my 7s lipos in about 2 weeks.

Cheers

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by Chippie13

Hi @EEngineer mine is 5kg or 11lbs but only thing still missing are main packs so just add weight of your packs to see what mine would be.

My receiver pack is in already so if your using a separate lipo for receiver then don't add that one.

I am going to try and maiden tomorrow on 12s as I will only receive my 7s lipos in about 2 weeks.

Cheers

I used the included GensAce 2S Lipo in my 800XX "bundle", but I "upgraded" the bundle by subtituting a Kosmik 200HV for the YGE 160...at an addititonal cost.

Using the Kos SBEC properly(according to their manual), requires the use of an external battery(Nicad/LiFe/LiPo..depending upon one's SBEC voltage...2S Lipo with the Kos at 8V out)...by means of a Y cable...."paralleled" with the Kos SBEC on the "slave" SBEC voltage port.

I'm not familiar with the YGEs in this repect.

BTW, with the Kon internal dual lead SBECs, Jive or Kos....the SBEC cables should be used with the included "ferrite" toroids.

Not to suppress ESC RF emissions that could interfere with the RX.....since it's at 2.4 GHz.......As is the most common excuse for removing them.

The ferrite toroids are used to suppress ESC RF emissions that could interfere with the proper operation of one's FBL MEMS gyro system.

How does the YGE ESC deal with this?

Your build looks great.

Did your get some turnbuckles for your swash/grips links?

And did you set up the rotor head using a digital pitch gauge....or did you use the "main blade foldback method" to check pitch deflection?

Some say...that it doesn't matter if the swash follower arms are not parallel with each other....at 0 degress collective.

I don't agree...and insist they should be parallel.

Just curious...

[rcmarty]

The kosmic bec is great , I used a small 2s lipo on my goblin build. I used a 2s 450mah (130x) rx pack.
450mah doesn't sound like much but it's enough power for an auto which is where your at if it's needed.

Keep in mind you will need the progdisk to change bec voltage and update the software (if needed)

The stock YGE doesn't have a bec on board so a separate rx lipo is required. I use a 2s2p 4000 for both my 700 and 800.

Not sure on the ferrite coils , I've done over 250 flights with my jive without them and some with a kosmic.
I'm thinking routing of the wiring has more to do with a potential problem than the coils will cure. ( pure speculation on my part )

For pitch , I'm still a bit old school. (and old to boot ) . I have one of the trex 600 fbl setup tools that uses a flybar ( remember these thingy's lol ) that bolts to the headblock. Then get out the vintage pitch guage and take the measurements.

I recall my first FBL , the logo 600 and the independent swash driver.
I don't fuss over a level swash driver arm , but I will turn the head in all extreme swash angles to see if I can find any binding or remote binding. If there isn't any binding tilting the swash far more than it will ever be in flight , your good to go.

I used the punisher turn buckles , found the 1 7/8 to be the right size with the stock spec'd links.
Just used one as I call it the master blade.

Martin

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by rcmarty

The kosmic bec is great , I used a small 2s lipo on my goblin build. I used a 2s 450mah (130x) rx pack.
450mah doesn't sound like much but it's enough power for an auto which is where your at if it's needed.

Keep in mind you will need the progdisk to change bec voltage and update the software (if needed)

The stock YGE doesn't have a bec on board so a separate rx lipo is required. I use a 2s2p 4000 for both my 700 and 800.

Not sure on the ferrite coils , I've done over 250 flights with my jive without them and some with a kosmic.
I'm thinking routing of the wiring has more to do with a potential problem than the coils will cure. ( pure speculation on my part )

For pitch , I'm still a bit old school. (and old to boot ) . I have one of the trex 600 fbl setup tools that uses a flybar ( remember these thingy's lol ) that bolts to the headblock. Then get out the vintage pitch guage and take the measurements.

I recall my first FBL , the logo 600 and the independent swash driver.
I don't fuss over a level swash driver arm , but I will turn the head in all extreme swash angles to see if I can find any binding or remote binding. If there isn't any binding tilting the swash far more than it will ever be in flight , your good to go.

I used the punisher turn buckles , found the 1 7/8 to be the right size with the stock spec'd links.
Just used one as I call it the master blade.

Martin

Marty, you're killing me...one turnbuckle......

Had to use the ProgDisc to up the SBEC voltage to 8V....as described in the "sticky".

With regards to the ferrite coils,

Wanna see what effect the ferrite coils have on the Jive/Kos SBEC output?

Have taken spectrum analyzer data to show the with/without examples.

FWIW

[Mark17]

Hey Chip

Did you maiden that thing? I'm interested in how it went for you.

I'm dead in the water with my build since I got that bad reactor hvx. Now I'm waiting for a response from either Scott gray or helidirect. Neither are responding now😡

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Hey Chip

Did you maiden that thing? I'm interested in how it went for you.

I'm dead in the water with my build since I got that bad reactor hvx. Now I'm waiting for a response from either Scott gray or helidirect. Neither are responding now��

Mark, is the Reactor HVX now an SBEC.....his Reactor X used to be a linear BEC, way back when....?

Do you have another SBEC to power your avionics so as to not stall your build?

While you're waiting, install some edgeguard on your canopy's swash cutout....you'll be really glad you did....

FWIW

[Chippie13]

Hi Everyone

Uploading last video in my build so it will be available soon!

@EEngineer

Why would you swop out the standard turnbuckles? I seem to have missed what is wrong with the standard ones So the answer to your question is nope I am running original turnbuckles at this stage.

As for the swash level setup I start by getting servos arms 90% then using manual for lengths getting links to swash up and checking that follower arms are parallel and swash is level(mix of eyeball and small spirit level not perfect but close saving for swash leveling tool). Then using manual getting link lengths more or less to blades up and then checking that pitch is at 0%(eye and screwdriver through blade bolt holes that must run parallel with main shaft and saving for rc Logger pitch gauge).

That leaves me with the maximum pitch and collective setup which I used the blade folding method and although it seems a bit old school and basic has worked pretty well. Will have to see how she flies when pushed during flights but for now seems pretty darn close.

@Mark17

Yes I have maidened it with a friend's 12S lipo. Scary as hell coming from a 450 so double checked my double checks and missed the following: My dx6i is setup with 93% throttle in normal mode and 98% in idle 1 and no idle 2 available on my el cheapo radio So the only thing that will cut my throttle is throttle hold. Here we go throttle hold on everything ready....throttle hold off....she starts spinning up and I move collective stick to just under middle. Looking good she has full throttle(93% flat curve) now from what I can hear so I push up on collective stick and voila she gets light on skids...... dynamic roll over or something collective stick DOWN....throttle hold and she slams back into position and digs into the grass like me after a good few tequilas.

Firstly need to adjust link to swash length to stop the roll over and secondly what the hell was that digging into the ground at full negative.....oh wait that's the pitch curve for throttle hold being the same as pitch curve for stunt mode and not a gentle bit of negative as for normal mode.

Ok adjust link length 2 turns longer with shaky hands. Adjust mind set to remember that in normal mode you cannot flick to throttle hold when stick is at the bottom...it has to be in the middle more or less so pitch curve is the same at that point for both normal and throttle hold mode...smoke a cigarette for nerves and off we go.

You have no idea(maybe a bit presumptuous) what a feeling it is when she takes off!!!!

Stable as hell and damn she is sensitive. I am almost willing to say that this heli can maneuver as fast as the 450 or at least at that moment it felt like it. I then realized with shaking hands that maybe JUST maybe a tad bit dual rates would be a brilliant idea so I landed. Eventually ended up dialing down to 70% dual rate until I am used to the size and handling.

Took off again and with 12S lipo strapped to her belly like a baby chimpanzee I had the best hovering exercise ever

Hovered it for a few minutes landed and gave my flying buddy a chance and from what I could tell he also had one of the best hovering exercises ever.

Anyways this has honestly been one of those feelings I doubt you will get again although I will try my best to replicate it damn soon as I should be getting my 14S packs in the next week or so.

She flies and it was amazing!!!!

Hope you get yours up and running soon!

[EEngineer]

Good job, Chip....

"Why would you swop out the standard turnbuckles?"

Because the stock swash to servo/swash to grip links aren't turnbuckles.

A turnbuckle has a right-hand thread on one and a left-hand thread on the other end.

So you have "infinite" length resolution....compared to a link, as the link length resolution is the pitch of its thread....1/2 if one puts the plastic link over its ball backwards.

So one can setup the rotor head more precisely.

The blade fold-back method may seem "old school", but is equally as precise as a digital pitch gauge.....Also, the heli doesn't have to be precisely level on the bench.

Your "eagle's eye" can tell if the tips are level....if you can hold 1/16" delta, you're as accurate as the current digital pitch scale.

Have had more measurement consistency, and using the TB's, blade tracking, on the first flight, is always "dead on".

Blade fold-back is also useful to ensure that one has equal pitch deflection in FP/FN
collective....by measuring the "tip spread"....should be equal at both FP/FN collective around the clock.

I do like the RC Logger 2, to ensure I have a "touch" of pitch to counter the main blade torque.

Wait 'till you get your 14S system installed....

Which reminds me of something else....

When you install the velcro on your batts and 700/800XX batt plates....notice that you can shift the batts. fore/aft....to keep the CG....but one batt can only be shifted back so far...and its twin can be shifted more.....because of how the batt. plate screws in.

Both my 700XX and 800XX came out nose-heavy....because I substituted a Kos 200HV for the YGE.......

Shifted the Pulse main batts back....as far as possible....but had to add ~ 10g of tail weight.

Everyone's setup varies...

Good job....let's hear how you like the 14S.

Cheers