ESC and FBL tail gains?

[Audball]

I checked all the threads in the Warp 360 sub-forum and didn't see any "post your setups!" threads, so I figured I'd ask here:

- For anybody using a Castle ICE [lite] 50, what is your governor gain?
- For anybody using a [Mini] V-bar, what are your cyclic and tail gains? (Or, if you have the Pro software, feel free to post your expert settings)

I had my first few flights today, and I'm still not happy with my tail setup. Slider is perfectly smooth (no binding) and I'm using a tail servo I've used in the past on a Rave 450 to great effect (JR DS3500G) with the ball roughly 10.5mm out from center, and I had to lower the V-Bar tail gain all the way down to 45 to avoid the wag of death -- and this was only good for my lowest head speed of 2400. For my others (2700, 3000), I got the wag even with the V-Bar tail gain slider all the way at the bottom (40).

Any shared electronics setups would be appreciated!

[Jeff_Barrett]

Originally Posted by Audball

I checked all the threads in the Warp 360 sub-forum and didn't see any "post your setups!" threads, so I figured I'd ask here:

- For anybody using a Castle ICE [lite] 50, what is your governor gain?
- For anybody using a [Mini] V-bar, what are your cyclic and tail gains? (Or, if you have the Pro software, feel free to post your expert settings)

I'm running the following:

Compass 1500kv Prototype Motor
Skookum Robotics SK-720 FBL Controller
Castle Ice Lite 50 ESC
MKS DS92A+ Cyclic Servos
MSK DS95i Tail Servo
WR Super Mini BEC G2
Edge 353 FBL Main Blades
Edge 60 Tail Blades
Reaktor 6S 1400mah 30C Lipo

I'm not running the internal governor on the Ice Lite 50. I'll be running the Skookum SK-720 governor with the Hyperion Phase Tach Sensor.

Cyclic Gain is 54%
Tail Gain is 50%

+/- 12 Degree Pitch
+/- 10 Degrees Cyclic

My tail is LOCKED IN with no bounce / rebound. It stops on a dime. My cyclic is absolutely solid and stable as well. There's a few guys on here that can attest to this as they see me flying my Warp 360 every Saturday night at our indoor flying sessions.

[Stevemech]

Will 8mm work for the tail lever arm.Sounds like to much mechanical gain.
Steve

[Audball]

Yeah, I'm at 80/80 on the tail endpoints setup in the VBar, so I could stand to bring the ball in a little bit -- would have to cut the bolt holding the ball onto the horn, though. The manual specifies 12mm for the tail, however, so I'm curious what ball spacing folks are using for their MKS tail servos...

(And I'm still interested in VBar setup numbers. It's not really possible to make comparisons to setups like Jeff's Skookum, so am hoping some will chime in with some apples-to-apples comparisons).

[Stevemech]

I us what ever lever hole that gets me as close to 100 as possible, it will behave alot better!
Steve

[shaman3]

Originally Posted by Audball

I had to lower the V-Bar tail gain all the way down to 45 to avoid the wag of death -- and this was only good for my lowest head speed of 2400. For my others (2700, 3000), I got the wag even with the V-Bar tail gain slider all the way at the bottom (40)

Hi,
I'm flying the Warp with Koby55LV@6,0V, DS95(i) and Mini VBar.
I have set up 3 different HS (15% - 35% - 55% for Koby Governor) and different parameter banks (0-1-2) in the VBar.
For the highest HS, I also had issues with the tail wagging violently in some maneuvers. Went down with the slider all the way to its bottom position (=40).
But that was still to much gain for the HS, so here is my tip:
it is possible to enter an even lower number manually!
At 35, the tail wag is now completely gone, with the tail being locked in perfectly

So I ended up with the tail gains at 75-66-35 (banks 0-1-2) and respective main rotor gains of 76-70-66 (still no wobble after sharp cyclic inputs, could probably go up some points there).

I have attached a screenshot of bank 2 showing the "lower than possible via slider".
value of 35. I did not yet change any of the "expert" setting (P/I etc.) as I am already extremely satisfied with the current setup
Cheers, Daniel

[ccnada]

I too am at the lowest settings on the vbar for the tail and cyclic gains. I did adjust throws to be closer to 100 for the tail. I too was at 80/80 and 40 gain was still too high. Kept getting WOD. Now that I'm at 100/100 I'm at 45 gain and dropped the "P" gain 10pts which helped on FFF. No more WOD.

Cyclic I'm also at the lowest gain, 40 and still get a slight wobble on hard manuvers. Agility I'm at 90 and 90 on precise flying style. I may try manually setting gain to 35.

I am really wondering why gains have to be so low on this bird...

I am using the vbar gov and fly at 95%. Idle 2 is at 85% and the tail is really soft at 85%. Don't know how to use the bank switching.

Setup is:
Full size blueline vbar pro 5.2
Hyperion phase sensor
Hobbywing 40amp Platinum
WR mini BEC
MKS92a
Spektrum 5020 tail

5 more flights today and I am loving this bird!

[elewout]

Hi Guys,

afther a few evening my build is ready for the maiden flight.

i already damaged the blade tips and almost got a crash cause of the tail.

my set up mks95a+ on the cyclic 8910a+ on the tail.
hobbywing 40amp esc ar7200bx with satelite,stock motor.
timing 18.5 degree and 12hz.governor hi.very soft start

for first flight i started in normal rate(dx8 -35%) throttle curve on 0-55-55-55-55 to adjust the tail if needed just needed half a turn and it flew like a beauty.

then i tested again with headinglock mode +35 it seems to much as tail was wagging fast lowerde to 25 and thing are perfect.

final test i started in idle up 1 curve 65 flat (as governor only work +60%) pitch zero and flipped hold to of. first few seconds it flew perfect but then tail started kicking very violent and controling was impossible so i hit the hold and manage to get landed with only a smal amount of paint from the blade tips:-(

i tried governor low and no problem again but could not reach the desired head speed.

so now i'm afraid to test again before i know if that governor could be the reason.

any tips?

[ccnada]

I too kept getting the Wag Of Death on my 1st flights. I had to bring in the ball on the tail servo horn, and keep dropping the gain.

Problem is, the higher I bumped up the HS, the WOD would return and I lowered gain even more. Then I would try FFF and WOD would return and I'd lower gain even more.

Now my tail is happy but my gains are very low. But she flys great this way!

Also, I have read in these threads to not run in gov mode till you get your tail set up right.

[Rob43]

I don't know what is the common factor or design feature, but this was exactly our experiences with the 7HV V2 tail installation and sorting. Very low gains for high speed.

[Stevemech]

I'm using 62mm inplace of the 70mm stockers for now and that helped( wanted some more ground clearance for the tail).
Steve

[P.I.Engineer]

i'm in 1 hole on my 8910, and my futaba gain is at 25A.

[Stevemech]

I'm using the 8910a also and use the most inner hole and still get 100 both ways( barely).Running pretty normal gains with a Robird gyro.
Steve

[ScotY]

Curious to know how much total collective and cyclic travel is possible before any binding is evident. What I mean by this is if you have +/- 12 deg. collective, how much cyclic can you get? Cyclic values should be measured at max. positive and max. negative pitch. And how do these values compare to the previous helicopters you have set up?

Reason for the question is because if the ratios are significantly different, it would make sense that gyro gains will also be different, lower in this case. The cyclic servos use long arms, relative to other 450s. This is not where the ratios are affected because the swash outer ball OD is designed to match the servo arms, i.e. the swash OD is relatively large. What matters is the swash inner ball diameter compared to the radius of the blade grip arms (length of the blade grip arms). What is unfortunate is the inner swash balls are 90 deg to the normal layout so there is no way to adjust ratios there by using a shorter ball (assuming that is physically possible). It's also impossible, from a user's standpoint, to lengthen the blade grip arms.

I'm no expert but it seems to me that sometimes a physical setup change (example would be using a shorter tail servo arm) will allow higher gains and increased performance. If this is true also for the main rotor (and assuming the swash/head ratios are a little off), then a physical adjustment might improve performance.

[Stevemech]

Somewhere in these threads Jim Barrett( sorry for miss spelling)was running 13 on pitch and 10 on cyclic, but I think even more is possible.My tail gain is pretty close to what my other heli's are and didn't change my cyclic gain(haven't had much chance to fine tune yet).I also wondered how it would work with cyclic at 12 mm hole inplace of 15mm and how much I would lose in swash travel.I think the mks 92a might be a little weak ?
Steve

[Jeff_Barrett]

If you're referring to me (Jeff Barrett - lol) I am running 12 degress pitch and 10 cyclic but more is possible. I just don't need more than that for my flying abilities and style.

[Stevemech]

Hey Jim, are you using the end hole on the mks servo arm?
Steve

[Jeff_Barrett]

Originally Posted by Stevemech

Hey Jim, are you using the end hole on the mks servo arm?
Steve

... it's JEFF not Jim.

I'll measure the distance from the centre of the servo horn to the ball link rather than provide you which hole the link is in. I believe MKS recently changed the horns they were shipping, so there's no gaurantee the distances will be the same if I tell you which hole they are in.

I'd do it right now, but my Warp is sitting at home and I'm at work.

[Stevemech]

Sorry Jeff, I keep screwing up your name, won't happen again!Thanks for the info in advance!
Steve

[ScotY]

Should be 15mm, according to the manual. On both of the two styles of MKS arms I have, that would be the last hole out. Btw, you probably want to stick with that for alignment with the swashplate.