something new

[powercroco]

Instead of showing the 29. variation of winding on a 10 years old motortype, I have played around a bit and got this:
my new 5040 prototyp.
thought for for speed models and big 800+ and /or big morebladed helicopters.












some features:
-12N10P and 12N14P
-increased thickness of magnets and backiron
- of course evo shaped plates in 0,2 and 0,1mm
- improved radial fan, designed by the maker of kontronik-fans
- weight 870g
- outer diameter = 65mm
- length 80mm
- 10/6er shaft
- long free shaft with flat part
- big outside bearing (21x6x10)
- ns 320 – 391 -463/V with YGE 18°
- power for longer time. 10kW+
- P peak > 15kW (the maximum of my power supply), someone can say all, what the batteries can give
- for 14S-16S – or more
- wire depends on n spec. minimum 1,7 up to 2 strands x 1,4 in parallel
- YY
- outstanding torque
- very impressive efficiency.

they will be used in peregrine ( monster-speedplane) and speedbanshee, in both cases with 16S.

[GMAURO]

Interesting Ralph, another good shot! Well done.
why do you have try also 14p motorcan? How many efficency do you loose with 14p can? At what amperage value do you keep maximum efficency point? What airgap in this prototype.?
Ive seen some of this recent fan on the scorpion motors, and this work very well and clean. Thats very good!

[powercroco]

I wanted to see the differences between 10 and 14poles and between thinner and thicker magnets.
and I also have built with 0,2 and 0,1mm plates.
so I had a lot of combinations for testing.
to get these comparabel results was one of the main targets of the work.

I still think, the motor making companies should make their own researches.
So I only say about the results, that they fully confirmed all my expectations.

[Raptorapture]

Nice Ralph! Just what the doctor ordered

Pardon my ignorance, what does the 1,4 stand for?

[powercroco]

may be I better describe it as 1,4 II 1,4.
2 wires in parallel.
the reason is, that the eddy current losses and just the skin effects with high frequencies (good esc under partload condition just work with up to 32kHz) with 2,0mm wire single strand just would be higher than with 2x1,4 in parallel. and 2 strands can be winded with equal wire lenghts to prevent circular currents, if the winder makes his work nice.

[Raptorapture]

Wow, didn't expect to learn that much in one post!

I missed the 2x due to 2.0mm being the potential max diameter I expected for the wind.

Cheers, Geoff.

[fusionsx00]

Can we see the winds?
What you described sounds intresting

[powercroco]

such 4 turns II-winding looks like one of mine normal winding with 8 turns also looks.
definately nothing new to see.

bigger diameter than 1,9 makes only sense in full throttle usage, such as in our speeders, may be in speedhelis out of the range of govenor influence.

[Vom Feinsten]

I would like to see a 5030 with 10 or 14 poles with this new design, could be a good powerplant..... And a little less weight than the 5035 I amusing right now


Many greetings from Denmark

Viele Grüsse aus Dänemark


Janis

[fusionsx00]

Originally Posted by powercroco

such 4 turns II-winding looks like one of mine normal winding with 8 turns also looks.
definately nothing new to see.

bigger diameter than 1,9 makes only sense in full throttle usage, such as in our speeders, may be in speedhelis out of the range of govenor influence.

move along nothing new to see?

Come on guy, its a simple request

[Vinger]

Thanks for sharing Ralph, great to have you back and I do understand your reluctance. Happy winding.....

[powercroco]

seems, they start to build the right teststand for my new baby.

seems my direct outside link is blocked by the forum software.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=5973963

[Mercuriell]

Sorry about the blocked external link Dr O there's history there

Exciting motor, thanks for sharing :

I read between the lines that your theory on 10 vs 14p is validated I have found in my own limited experiment that my 4540 Sig seems to outperform its 14p cousins

Does your parallel wire wind and presumes lessening of skin effects validate the multi strand winding of the Xera 4530-500 which seemed to punch above it's weight.

[powercroco]

seen over all (switching frequence of esc in part load; copper fill = ohmical resistance; eddy current and skín effects) i think:

until 1,8mm the single strand is the better choice.
1,9 is even,
more better use 2 strands.

more I think we will not need into our model drives untill the esc will work with much higher switching frequencies.

about 4530 xera - now Xnova:
afaik the newer model is winded single strand with 1,5mm wire now just by factory.
why should the you this, if multistrand was so much better as they said ........

[Mercuriell]

Originally Posted by powercroco

about 4530 xera - now Xnova:
afaik the newer model is winded single strand with 1,5mm wire now just by factory.
why should the you this, if multistrand was so much better as they said ........

Maybe because you lead the way and they copy you !

Expect some twin wire winding to appear methinks in the commercial sector

Higher frequency should not be hard to do but maybe start to cause more problems with RFI as in the 'old days'

[modisc731]

Originally Posted by powercroco

seen over all (switching frequence of esc in part load; copper fill = ohmical resistance; eddy current and skín effects) i think:

until 1,8mm the single strand is the better choice.
1,9 is even,
more better use 2 strands.

more I think we will not need into our model drives untill the esc will work with much higher switching frequencies.

about 4530 xera - now Xnova:
afaik the newer model is winded single strand with 1,5mm wire now just by factory.
why should the you this, if multistrand was so much better as they said ........

why 18N20P design is out of the game? any particular reason?
considering the higher winding factor of 18N20P over 12N14P.
Or it may due to the slot factor ;(




d

[powercroco]

18N20P is only a real option for slow spinning motors. (big props in direct drive, direct driven helis)
20P = almost the double in iron losses compared to 10P at the same rpm.
an the win in torque also isn't the double - a gearing 10P will gnerate more, including the gear-losses.
in helis you ever have the gear, so you generate no additional losses.

[modisc731]

Originally Posted by powercroco

18N20P is only a real option for slow spinning motors. (big props in direct drive, direct driven helis)
20P = almost the double in iron losses compared to 10P at the same rpm.
an the win in torque also isn't the double - a gearing 10P will gnerate more, including the gear-losses.
in helis you ever have the gear, so you generate no additional losses.

You are right! It is not for high speed, due to high pole count.
It seems this specific design is out of the game, also because of the "slot factor"

old scorpion S-5545:
Theoretical winding factor of 18N20P is 0.945
diameter of the stator: 55mm
gap between adjacent teeth heads: 3mm
slot factor - revised winding factor drops to 8.99.

new SII-6535,
Theoretical winding factor of 12N14P is 0.933
stator diameter is 65mm,
gap between adjacent teeth heads: 3mm
slot factor revised winding factor is 0.916...

Though i really love this S-5545 design...seems it is crap now, too sad.

[aterren]

Originally Posted by powercroco

P peak > 15kW

and

Originally Posted by powercroco

seems, they start to build the right test stand for my new baby.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=5973963

Oh my, that would be a sight. 30kw combined power. If more is good then maybe, just maybe too much is just right?

[powercroco]

forget it - when I wrote this, I didn't knew, they would use 2 motors.

have fun.....