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Align 3G FBL System Align 3G FBL Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support


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Old 06-16-2010, 12:59 PM   #61
Azdesertfalcon
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I looked through all comments and only saw one person that stated they mounted the sensor on a 500 above the tail block.

What is the best place to locate the sensor I have mine located in the empty space above the tail block on my 500 but I haven't flown yet.
I was going to place it on the bottom frame brace but it seemed to me that all of the wires were too close to the sensor and I didn't want to take the risk of having wires bumping against the sensor causing false readings.

My RX is on the tray that is supplied and is stated as a gyro sensor tray but from what I have read that is the worst place to put the sensor unless I get an update piece of plexi glass to mount in its place.

so my question is should I leave my sensor where it is? is this a good location?
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:09 PM   #62
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I had it on the boom block and was horrible. I strapped it on the middle tray and flies great !!

Use the 3m pads and a metal plate too.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:21 PM   #63
Azdesertfalcon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgreco View Post
I had it on the boom block and was horrible. I strapped it on the middle tray and flies great !!

Use the 3m pads and a metal plate too.
What version was your setup when you tried it?

I flew it for the first time with the sensor mounted on the boom/tail block and had a slight tail wag but it only lasted for a few minutes as I started flying I found out the hard way that during setup I had one of my Swash settings set to 60+ instead of 60- like the others and I drove it to the ground I only have minor damage but waiting for parts. I was like what the hell at first and when I realized I was backwards it was pretty much too late so it went from dont crash to make it an easy crash so I will replace the blades main shaft and a slightly bent boom, feathering shaft and everything else was spared.
Next week I will get going again and not make that mistake again and I will see what works. I like the 3M tape I may move the sensor to the RX location but the lower skid seemed too crowded for the sensor to be located there plus I was thinking it the vibration comes from the head down by the time it reaches the skids and lower the vibration frequency would be greater. However from what i have read nothing seems to be the best bet and where some have good luck others dont so I guess I will need to experiment and find what works for my machine??

thank you for the advice.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:24 PM   #64
Elgreco
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Mine is still V1. Have not upgraded yet as I don't have the USB yet.
My RX is on the bottom and the 3G main unit, glued on the side frame.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:38 AM   #65
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Upgraded to v2.1 from v2 and trex700 was flying like shit. I had 2 layers of 3m tape. And now using Align Foam, Metal Plate, 3m Tape.

So if 2 layers of 3m was working with v2, you might need thicker\softer foam for v2.1.

Last edited by stanggt88; 07-19-2010 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 06-25-2010, 02:38 PM   #66
France78
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Wink 600 Nitro tape combination

On my 600N 3G v2.1 my combination is : 1 layer of 3m thick tape , metal plate , 1 futaba type gyro pad all strip down (medium\lightly) with a little size Align velcro. Sensor on original plastic plate on the front servos.(3x Align ds610 + 9256 on tail \ Ale gain 12 o'clock \ Ele gain 11 o'clock ).

I have also tried only 1 align foam pad under the sensor stripped down with velcro but for me works well the other combo with 3m tape.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:17 AM   #67
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This is what worked for me on a 600N: one piece of Zeal, metal plate for 520 and a piece of 3M 4010 tape. Then I strapped it down with a piece of velcro - not too tight and not too loose. I also reduced the Lock Gain for the rudder from 70 to 60 using the 3G Link. It's now very solid with no tail wag. Hope this helps.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:24 AM   #68
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Conetica mentioned above that he reduced the rudder Stop Gain; however, that default setting is already "0". I assume he meant the Lock Gain. As I mentioned above, this is what worked for me to eliminate tail wagging.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:22 AM   #69
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Thanks bobs, I did increase the stop gains because I had a mushie stop, but I did mean decrease the lock gain, got my lock down too 50. I am very happy with this 3g now, good hard stops, no more tail hunting, and no bobbing.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:13 PM   #70
michael503
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gonna try a 4010 tape combo next (700E)
It sure was an adventure trying to find it though... I went to, in the following order.

Walmart
Office Depot
Sams
Lowes
CVS pharmacy
Walmart (different one)
Kmart
Home Depot
Target
Sears

---no luck

Finally found it on what was going to be my last stop..OfficeMax. 2 blocks from my freakin' front door.

go figure
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:00 AM   #71
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Update on my status...

Did update to firmware 2.1.

Definitely better...

Though still not satisfying...

After one day with eight batteries and a helluvalot of tweaking with the notebook, it flew acceptable.
Yes, I purposely went to the field on a somewhat gusty day, but the whole heli had a twitching. The swash wasn't really locked in as I expected - worse then with flybar - and the tail was constantly twitching around between 2 and 5mm.
When in fast forward flight, the nose would start oscillate, so I had to lower the setting on the unit to around 10 o'clock, which made it drift somewhat more in hover.
And that was the best I could tweak out of it.
But definitely much better than before.

Nevertheless, I put it aside and let it rest for a moment of thought - about two weeks - until I read about the firmware-update-package of the 28-06-2010.
I was suspicious whether it would help, as the file-version on the page was still 2.1.

Nevertheless, today, with temperature of 32C outside, I bit the bullet and did download the latest package.

First thing I noticed, that the sliders were now at different positions from the beginning of the stock-setup.
I loaded the standard for 250-450 and went to the field and again it was a tad gusty.
And whoah...!
It is definitely a difference!
Whether there's really a change in the firmware - though still labelled 2.1 - or it's just the different setting to begin with, the heli felt quite better, quite more locked-in...
I then wanted to test a Velcro-Strap on the sensor.
Until now, the sensor was installed underneath the boom with one layer of the original tape. Now, there is an additional Velcro quite tight around it.
And once more, the feeling of having a locked-in heli was somewhat more intense.
I did then fiddle some more with the software, though there weren't many changes needed. Most needed was the tail-lock-gain, which went down to 30, and the tail-stop-gain, which I increased to 30.
I flew two packs for the tweaks, and two more just for fun - now that's more what I call a flybarless heli...
(Though my flybarred Logo500 still awaits to be beaten in stability and agility... )

I still need to tweak the settings as I have movement in elevator when I suddenly reduce collective, though that should be ease to do...

Will post my setting in the setting-share-tool, once I'm satisfied...

Cheers,

Daniel
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Old 07-18-2010, 09:40 AM   #72
michael503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael503 View Post
gonna try a 4010 tape combo next (700E)
It sure was an adventure trying to find it though... I went to, in the following order.

Walmart
Office Depot
Sams
Lowes
CVS pharmacy
Walmart (different one)
Kmart
Home Depot
Target
Sears

---no luck

Finally found it on what was going to be my last stop..OfficeMax. 2 blocks from my freakin' front door.

go figure
well poop!

700E

I initially tried 1 layer of stock tape... tail wag no matter what the gain. strapped tight / loose. that changed the speed of the wag, but it never went away.

Then I used 1 layer of Align gel and a spartan plate and some HS white foam, strapped (can't run the gel without it) tail better, cyclic now spasmodic in a hover.

Then I made a mount to put a spartan gyro on it (see my gallery) due to tail kicks. The sensor was mounted on 4010 / brass 1/16"thick x 1" square / 4010 . The heli was still spasmodic in a hover. Went back to 1 layer of align foam... much better! My mount may have something to do with it, the sensor is suspended on an aluminum diving board positioned farther towards the rear of the heli. hopefully I can test some more today.. the AC is out and I need to wait on the repairman.
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Old 07-19-2010, 05:51 PM   #73
jessegodsey
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Well, I am going to try the 3M tape, metal plate, 3M tape and Futaba gyro foam on the top of that. I have had a tail wag that I cannot get rid of. So, I am going to see if this helps. I am running Align 650 servo on the tail and everything is trimmed correctly. I have also tried and play with the gain on the radio for the gyro and it really just won't stop. I can get it so low however on the gain that it starts to get really loose and hunt.
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Old 08-30-2010, 03:03 PM   #74
malc1
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Anymore updates on the 3M tape combo and T Rex 700E?

Is it working as I have some tape coming to try?
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Old 08-30-2010, 03:07 PM   #75
Azdesertfalcon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malc1 View Post
Anymore updates on the 3M tape combo and T Rex 700E?

Is it working as I have some tape coming to try?

I have had no further issues as of yet and what I did was made a sandwich of tape - thin copper plate - tape and mounted my sensor to the underside of the bottom plate toward the rear skid.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:21 PM   #76
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2 pieces of 3M or a piece of thinner stuff ?
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:31 PM   #77
Azdesertfalcon
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Default 3M tape

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Originally Posted by malc1 View Post
2 pieces of 3M or a piece of thinner stuff ?

I am using 2 pieces of 3M tape with a piece of copper washer (without a hole purchased at home depot and cut to size) between the two. I would guess that you could probably use any thin piece of metal between them. I did this because I found that I still had issues when using one piece and if I used two pieces of 3M tape there was too much movement so I added the metal spacer and got rid of the velcro strap along with relocating the sensor to the bottom of the helicopter under the bottom plate toward the rear skids and all my issues are gone and havent needed to tweak anything as of yet.
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Old 08-31-2010, 08:48 PM   #78
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What are we using on the 550e?
Is 3m #4010 working or should I stick to the standard foam?
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:12 AM   #79
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Post Antivibration mounting

I am an relatively inexperienced RC heli pilot but a retired mechanical and electrical engineer. I reason that the sensor must be insulated as far as possible from all vibration above the very low frequency input that is the desired signal. This is the roll/pitch/heading inputs we want to control. These, in frequency terms, are very low indeed- a fraction of a Hertz. This means that the desired vibration mounting must reject the higher frequencies inherent in the mechanical vibration from the heli. For reject read 'be soft mounted' A 600E turning at 1600rpm with a 180 tooth main gear is generating significant gear noise at 4.8khz; the tail drive frequency is similar. Pulses from the main rotor are much more dangerous at 16/30 hz and the tail rotor four times that. This leads quickly to the idea that the sensor needs a sizable weight attaching to it and the whole thing then soft sticky pad attached to the helicopter. The best place will be below the mast or as close as possible because Z axis (rudder plane) vibration from the rotor will translate into zero/minimal roll/elev-axes noise in that position.
I used a piece of brass 1" square and 0.215" thick (no significance, just freehand machining), that weighs 30 grams. The 3G sensor weighs 9.3 grams so we have a substantial mass shunt to kill the vibration. The sensor is attached to the brass block by one Align sticky gyro pad and the other was used to stick the brass to the helicopter.
The Trex600ESP did fly sweet and quiet before the conversion with stock align carbon blades. After conversion, with perfect tracking, there was a little wobble in pitch. I reduced both roll and pitch gains on the controller from 50% to about 35% - magic, just beautiful. The tail gain remains the same as set on the DX7 for the GP780 that came off at 67% in the gyro sense menu.
The bird flies very well indeed. I am not doing anything violent. I don't like 3D but I am impressed how steady and responsive it is. Previously it was a little coltish, nothing to worry about but much better now. I can take my thumbs off for 3/4 seconds in hover - no bother at all - so smooth.
I believe that if a helicopter is a bad vibrator, you will have trouble with this system. The trick is to have no bent shafts, quality balanced blades and the sensor under the mast. Then, a weight as large as may be needed, to put the sensor on and a 1 or two thickness mounting for that. If I needed more weight I would hollow the brass out to place the mass round the sensor to more nearly get it round the CG of the sensor and have a mounting flange round the outside to get the sticky pad level with the Cg of the sensor.. This is to reduce any turning moment that horizontal vibration imparts to the sensor at low frequencies. Of course this would be false signal and lead to wobble. What I think about strapping the sensor down is that this is partly stopping that conversion of horizontal vibration into roll or pitch input.. Obviously it tends to short out the flexible mounting in the up/down direction but there is probably minimal vibration input in that direction. Unfortunately it will also partly negate the value of the soft sticky mounting pad.
I have often seen reports of using a plate between the sensor and the heli but they don't say how heavy it is. Such pictures as have been posted show it as 1/16" or less. I recommend 30-50 grams for the plate. 50 grams with a recess for a bad case.
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Old 09-03-2010, 01:59 AM   #80
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I am going to try

Helicopter/align tape/sparton plate/align tape/sprton plate/aligntape/sensor.

\Wondering if doing two plates would help? As soon as I get my tape kits from http://www.jonsheliwerx.com/ (He ships FAST, so should have them in a day or so) I will be doing some testing with multiple plates. I have also concluded that anti-vibration is KEY with FBL machines, more so then just a tail gyro....
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