Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 450 Class Electric Helicopters


450 Class Electric Helicopters 450 Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-22-2014, 06:35 PM   #1
Sefrez
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default Here we go again, ESC chokes motor in flight and has 450L going into the ground

This is the second ESC I have put on the heli (RCE-BL45X) that has began "failing" in flight. I'll be in idle up with plenty of torque and then all of a sudden a loud whine from the motor is produced and the heli falls out of the sky.

I broke the skids, two servos (gears), bent the main shaft, and dented a main blade at the grip.

If this ESC is any like the last, there is no point in putting everything back together because it will happen again.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

Last night when I was working on the heli, I accidentally gave a little throttle but prevented the head from spinning. The ESC of course tried to get the motor going. I had the throttle up no more than two seconds.

Surely in this time the ESC didn't get damaged?
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2014, 11:08 AM   #2
Larryu
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Jacksonville, FL USA
Default

I doubt that would hurt the ESC but if you are replacing the ESC why don't you upgrade and get something better. I have a Castle Creations and love it way better and smoother the the Align Esc. Almost anything is better than Align very basic ESC.
Larryu is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2014, 04:39 PM   #3
ahahn
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Chicago 'burbs
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefrez View Post
This is the second ESC I have put on the heli (RCE-BL45X) that has began "failing" in flight. I'll be in idle up with plenty of torque and then all of a sudden a loud whine from the motor is produced and the heli falls out of the sky.

I broke the skids, two servos (gears), bent the main shaft, and dented a main blade at the grip.

If this ESC is any like the last, there is no point in putting everything back together because it will happen again.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

Last night when I was working on the heli, I accidentally gave a little throttle but prevented the head from spinning. The ESC of course tried to get the motor going. I had the throttle up no more than two seconds.

Surely in this time the ESC didn't get damaged?
Why do you think that? That is not an accepted practice. If you hold the head fixed, then the ESC will see the motor as a basic short circuit--who knows what will happen to it as it tries hard to make the motor turn? What happens depends on the ESC firmware.
ahahn is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2014, 07:37 PM   #4
Sefrez
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larryu View Post
I doubt that would hurt the ESC but if you are replacing the ESC why don't you upgrade and get something better. I have a Castle Creations and love it way better and smoother the the Align Esc. Almost anything is better than Align very basic ESC.
I was going to get a castle lite 50A because I have seen it work well in other 450L setups. But so many people are running 6 cell setups on the 450L where currents are lower and temperatures are less. The stock ESC with the heat sink on my 3S setup comes down quite warm. So It could be lite 50A ESC wouldn't work well. Then there was the heat sink version, but I was afraid it would't fit under the canopy.

I'm on extremely tight budgets and so only like to go with what I have seen work well. I don't have the money to play around with.

I am now looking at the hobbywing platinum pro v3. It seems promising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahahn View Post
Why do you think that? That is not an accepted practice. If you hold the head fixed, then the ESC will see the motor as a basic short circuit--who knows what will happen to it as it tries hard to make the motor turn? What happens depends on the ESC firmware.
Certainly not usual practice, I know. However, I wouldn't call it a short circuit given the motor had room to move and did oscillate. Energy was certainly being converted into mechanical motion and so not all of it could have gone into internal heat production.

But under the assumption enough heat was produced internally to damage the ESC, shouldn't there be protection arrangements in the hardware / firmware to prevent damage like this? I mean this could happen if a couple of gears were meshed too tightly and you go for a short spool up. It just seems very fragile if this is the case. I'd expect this with a cheap hobby king ESC, but not a 450 class ESC for $60.

Not that it is too good of a comparison, but I have crashed my micro walker V120D02S with a cheap little 20A ESC in idle up. The motor would be doing the same thing before I hit throttle hold. ESC is still going.
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2014, 09:24 PM   #5
iammenotu
Registered Users
 
Posts: 54
 

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Wilsonville, OR
Default

The fact that this has happened on two ESC's which many people have had success with suggests the problem might not be in the ESC.

I wonder if the motor or pinion disengaged from the drivetrain. That would explain the sudden loss of power and the loud whine from the motor.
-Perhaps the motor slid back in its mount. Is the pinion still properly meshed with the main gear?
-Check to see if the pinion spins, slides or wiggles on the motor shaft.
-Hold the motor with your hand to keep it from moving and spin the head/main shaft backwards (counterclockwise). Go ahead and put some force into it. Did the pinion slip?
-Pull the pinion off and inspect the motor shaft for scratches.

Does your ESC still work? If so, there are some bench tests you can do.
What happens if you remove the blades and spool it up?
If you remove the pinion and spool it up, do you hear the same noise?
__________________
Nano CPX, Trex 150, Trex 450L, Trex 500
Restoration project: Scale Bell 222 from 1980's (60 size nitro, Hirobo mechanics)
iammenotu is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2014, 12:28 AM   #6
Sefrez
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default

Thank you for the replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iammenotu View Post
The fact that this has happened on two ESC's which many people have had success with suggests the problem might not be in the ESC.

I wonder if the motor or pinion disengaged from the drivetrain. That would explain the sudden loss of power and the loud whine from the motor.
-Perhaps the motor slid back in its mount. Is the pinion still properly meshed with the main gear?
-Check to see if the pinion spins, slides or wiggles on the motor shaft.
-Hold the motor with your hand to keep it from moving and spin the head/main shaft backwards (counterclockwise). Go ahead and put some force into it. Did the pinion slip?
-Pull the pinion off and inspect the motor shaft for scratches.

Does your ESC still work? If so, there are some bench tests you can do.
What happens if you remove the blades and spool it up?
If you remove the pinion and spool it up, do you hear the same noise?
Looking over the net, I haven't found one other person experiencing this with the ESC. But it also seems most are running this ESC with the 1800KV motor on 6 cells. I'm running the 3200KV on 3 cells. Whether or not this has anything to do with it, I don't know.

The first time this happened, I wondered if it was the pinion too. It didn't seem to be. The lock bolt was still tight on the flat spot of the motor shaft and there were no scratches.

The same thing this go around. The pinion seemed to be locked. I removed it and looked at the shaft. Other than what looks to be some residue build up, I see no scratches. Only an impression on the flat spot where the bolt was. Also, the main gear to pinion meshing was still there. No way it could have slipped without the plastic gear being stripped.

This is actually my second motor as with the first ESC, I didn't hit throttle hold quick enough after the heli fell to the ground (because of the same problem) and the motor let out a big puff of smoke. This time it happened I made sure to hit throttle hold.


I haven't done any auto's with this heli yet and so I don't know how fast it falls. But I do know that in going to zero throttle the motor will continue to spin and decease steadily. Because of this the one-way-bearing is not being rolled quite as quick and there is less resistance to the head - the spinning time of the main blades is longer.

But when this problem I speak of happens, the heli drops like a rock. Head speed is gone very quickly. And this time I was only hovering, not doing a pitch pump or anything. Drive train is smooth with little resistance.

It seems like the motor quickly comes to a stop (like getting hung) and oscillates at a high frequency.



The ESC still works. That's what got me many times with the one before. It seemed fine so I went for more flights. Didn't happen the next flight, or the next, or perhaps even the next. I got my confidence back and there it goes again. I thought maybe I had improperly done the throttle calibration. I put the heli back together, re-did the calibration, and it was flying good again. Didn't happen for a few flights. I thought all was good. Then it happened yet again. This is the time I fried the motor. The ESC died with it.

Call me stupid for buying another align ESC, but as you said, many are flying well with it. I thought it was just a rare case.

What kind of bench tests could I do on this thing? I certainly am not putting the heli together and back in the air with it without a lot of testing.

I honestly want to make it fail on camera so that I can show people that either:
1) I'm very unlucky (twice).
2) The ESC's are faulty - at least with the 3200KV motor.
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2014, 04:11 AM   #7
vmecbu
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sweden
Default

I had similar problems with my stock ESC and changed to the Hobbywing platinum pro v3. Since then, I have not had any issues.
vmecbu is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2014, 05:46 AM   #8
Sefrez
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmecbu View Post
I had similar problems with my stock ESC and changed to the Hobbywing platinum pro v3. Since then, I have not had any issues.
Hello vmecbu,

Thanks for the response. I've been trying to find someone else with the problem I have been having.

Could you elaborate on the problem you had? Like would you be flying and all of a sudden the motor goes into a high pitch scream and you lose torque (helicopter falls out of the sky)? Also, was this with a 450L and 3S or 6S?

Thanks again.

EDIT:
What the heck, I just pulled the trigger on the hobbywing. I hope it works well with the 3200KV dominator motor.

Last edited by Sefrez; 07-24-2014 at 08:11 AM..
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2014, 10:33 AM   #9
iammenotu
Registered Users
 
Posts: 54
 

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Wilsonville, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefrez View Post
What kind of bench tests could I do on this thing? I certainly am not putting the heli together and back in the air with it without a lot of testing.
-Hold the motor with your hand to keep it from moving and spin the head/main shaft backwards (counterclockwise). Go ahead and put some force into it. Did the pinion slip?

-If you remove the pinion and spool it up, does it sound like the noise you heard in flight?
-Try spooling it up without main or tail blades attached. Do you get the same behavior?
-Try hovering a couple inches off the ground and you should be able to land safely if it happens again. Just leave the collective stick in the same position used to hover and it will float down as the head speed slows.

-I realize this is a long shot, but it could be very informative. Do you have any flying buddies with a 450L? If so, would they be willing to loan their ESC to you? You could test your machine out with an ESC that is known to be good. If it drops from the sky again, it probably means the problem is not your ESC, but somewhere else on your bird.
-Similar to the previous, you could try a different motor on your ESC.

Intermittent problems like this can be a pain in the ass to solve, but don't give up hope. You have a bad ass bird and I'm sure you will love it once you get this figured out.
__________________
Nano CPX, Trex 150, Trex 450L, Trex 500
Restoration project: Scale Bell 222 from 1980's (60 size nitro, Hirobo mechanics)
iammenotu is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2014, 06:07 PM   #10
vmecbu
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sweden
Default

No high pitch scream for me. Instead, the heli would suddenly loose power mid flight and fall to the ground like a rock. Initially, I thought that the problem was caused by a crappy connection. However, even though I resoldered the connections, the problems would not go away. After two expensive crashes, I gave up and bought the Hobbywing.

Since you have tried two ESCs, without solving the issue, I would not rule out that the problem is caused by some other part on your heli, such as the motor. As such, it could be worth trying iammenotu's advice before spending more money on a third ESC

I hope you find a solution to your problem soon, cause it is a really nice flying heli!
vmecbu is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2014, 07:03 PM   #11
Sefrez
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iammenotu View Post
-Hold the motor with your hand to keep it from moving and spin the head/main shaft backwards (counterclockwise). Go ahead and put some force into it. Did the pinion slip?

-If you remove the pinion and spool it up, does it sound like the noise you heard in flight?
-Try spooling it up without main or tail blades attached. Do you get the same behavior?
-Try hovering a couple inches off the ground and you should be able to land safely if it happens again. Just leave the collective stick in the same position used to hover and it will float down as the head speed slows.

-I realize this is a long shot, but it could be very informative. Do you have any flying buddies with a 450L? If so, would they be willing to loan their ESC to you? You could test your machine out with an ESC that is known to be good. If it drops from the sky again, it probably means the problem is not your ESC, but somewhere else on your bird.
-Similar to the previous, you could try a different motor on your ESC.

Intermittent problems like this can be a pain in the ass to solve, but don't give up hope. You have a bad ass bird and I'm sure you will love it once you get this figured out.
In checking for damaged parts, I had already disassembled the heli down to the body frame. So I couldn't apply sufficient torque on the pinion via the head. But I do believe the pinion was secured.

In spooling up the motor not engaged with the main gear the sound made seems different. It's hard to describe the sound I heard in flight other than it is like a whine. With the motor spinning normally on its own, it just sounds like a high speed beast.

Again, don't have the heli assembled right now but yes, I'd be able to spool it up and it would sound normal. That's what's so frustrating, the intermediacy.

If I try using this ESC anymore, I'll definitely only be hovering for a while.

Thanks for the reply. I know this bird can be awesome. I've seen all the pilots on YouTube doing crazy things with it. I begin wondering why I'm having seemingly such a hard time achieving success.

I've got a HobbyWing on the way. I might just go ahead and put that on it and forget trying to work out with the align ESC.

Oh yeah, flying buddies; I wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmecbu View Post
No high pitch scream for me. Instead, the heli would suddenly loose power mid flight and fall to the ground like a rock. Initially, I thought that the problem was caused by a crappy connection. However, even though I resoldered the connections, the problems would not go away. After two expensive crashes, I gave up and bought the Hobbywing.

Since you have tried two ESCs, without solving the issue, I would not rule out that the problem is caused by some other part on your heli, such as the motor. As such, it could be worth trying iammenotu's advice before spending more money on a third ESC

I hope you find a solution to your problem soon, cause it is a really nice flying heli!
Okay, thank you for the reply. I've got a HobbyWing on the way. Hopefully it will work well.

Are you running 6S or 3S? Also were you able to program the ESC by the TX? Thanks.
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2014, 10:21 PM   #12
vmecbu
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sweden
Default

I am running 6S and was able to program the ESC through the TX
vmecbu is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 05:22 AM   #13
Solmanbandit
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Glendale, AZ
Default

Quote:
I'm running the 3200KV on 3 cells.
That sounds like a motor that would be optimum for a 4s setup. For a 3s, 3500kv works very well. I understand what you are saying about being on a tight budget, but when you are going through multiple esc's, how much is that costing you and how much frustration? I use the Castle 50 lite and works great on my 450.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro - beastx / Trex 500 - Ikon / Trex 600E Ikon
Solmanbandit is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 06:00 AM   #14
Sefrez
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default

You may be right, and align just got it wrong with the 3S version. Says in the manual only 3S input. Oh well, maybe the HobbyWing will work with it. I was considering the ESC you speak of a while back, but that was before I realized everyone was running it on 6S.
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2014, 09:45 PM   #15
Sefrez
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default

Okay, so it seems the HobbyWing isn't going to work either.

The motor does not start properly and every now and then the ESC reboots when it fails to start the motor at all. Probably because of the excessive currents when the motor is stuttering. I've tried all the available timings and PWM frequencies. Startup behavior is unchanged.

Align ESC starts the motor no problem.

Another $60 wasted.
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 03:00 AM   #16
Solmanbandit
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Glendale, AZ
Default

Sounds possibly like a bad solder or connector.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro - beastx / Trex 500 - Ikon / Trex 600E Ikon
Solmanbandit is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 04:59 AM   #17
Sefrez
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NC
Default

As far as the bullet connectors I put on, thinking maybe I did a "bad" job I went back and re-heated the joints and loaded it with solder. I had the wires in place without touching them so that when the solder cooled there was no movement. So it is very unlikely there are cold solder joints there.

The bullet connectors are not easy (for me) to slide on, so the connection should be okay. At least as good as with the Align ESC (they are the same connectors).

Whether or not there is a bad joint in one of the wires on the ESC side, I don't know.

The motor runs fine once it gets going.
Sefrez is offline        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 450 Class Electric Helicopters


450 Class Electric Helicopters 450 Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2011 - William James - Helifreak.com