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Old 11-01-2010, 07:23 AM   #41
Rotorshake
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Hi all,

Noob here trying to break into the hobby (for years now) and having pretty good success. I'm past TI hover now and trying side in and figure 8's This is just great seeing that I'm really a little further along than I thought. I've done some FF but it scares me not having much comfort with the standard orientations. I would like to 3D but onlyafter I get this stuff. Comforting to know I'm on the right track. I've progressed to a trex 500 ESP FBL and can't stand to wreck it yet. I also have a 450 FB I've been burning packs in and put it in the dirt this weekend trying to figure out why one would stir the cyclic opposite of the piro you're trying. Anyone with an explination for this would be appreciated.

Once again thanks to all for sharing these basic challenges. It helps spread the art.

Dennis

Last edited by Rotorshake; 11-01-2010 at 07:25 AM.. Reason: Misspelling
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:45 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotorshake View Post
I've been burning packs in and put it in the dirt this weekend trying to figure out why one would stir the cyclic opposite of the piro you're trying. Anyone with an explination for this would be appreciated.
When you understand all the basic orientations, you will understand what is happening during the piro moves - that is the whole point of doing this exercise. Sometimes, people advance to piro flips and other complicated maneuvers, without actually knowing how they are doing it - they aren't actually flying the maneuver, they are simply repeating a known action - if something goes wrong during the maneuver, they often don't have the skills to recover because they haven't mastered the basic orientations.

Do not feel bad about your crashes - I can hover nose-in and almost fall asleep doing it, but I cracked up my 450 on the concrete runway this weekend flying at night - killed the pricey night blades I had only used once, and busted up various other parts too. It happens - this was due to a problem I caused when I added the lights.
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:49 AM   #43
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I tried the Challenge this morning.

The results were only fair.

I then tried the old AMA maneuver "Pilots Promenade" and made it about 2/3's of the way around before bailing out. This is ridiculous, as I used to do this routinely back in the 1980's.

I will try to get some video this week (this will put everyone to sleep, I am sure).

This thread is a good idea Bob!
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Old 11-01-2010, 12:00 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotorshake View Post
I've been burning packs in and put it in the dirt this weekend trying to figure out why one would stir the cyclic opposite of the piro you're trying. Anyone with an explination for this would be appreciated.
Here's an example of why you would stir clockwise with left rudder.

Take the 4 orientations of the nose as when using left rudder starting at tail in:
  • Tail In
  • Nose Left
  • Nose In
  • Nose Right
Here's the corresponding cyclic stick inputs you would need with those orientations to get the heli to move away from you:
  • Forward (12:00)
  • Right (3:00)
  • Back (6:00)
  • Left (9:00)
You can see that cyclic inputs in relation to the orientations of the heli is a clockwise stir. If you have a small model heli you can hold in your hands you can try this and see what input you need for every 90 degrees you piro the heli.

Knowing this is not just useful for piro flips, it's how you get around doing any piro maneuver including a stationary piro hover, or piro'ing circuits, piro loops, piro funnels, etc...
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:32 PM   #45
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Do we need to post a video to get challenge #2?
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:03 PM   #46
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Do we need to post a video to get challenge #2?
Have you turned in vid for challenge #1 yet?

I just saw the posts and wet out with my son - taped it and it is in process to be uploaded within the next hour. Video is kind of boring Tghe challenge is cool. -> actually we like to put some of those element into the first flight on a day.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:43 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RĒzĒ View Post
Yeah thought of that after my flight, but then again I'd feel like that's cheating. I could also have used a ton of expo, and dual rates, but I don't fly with those settings so changing them for the needs of a "challenge" i think would not be in the spirit of the exercise.
No disaggreement there. I suggested it 'cause this challenge reminds me of F3C flying. For hovering, F3C flyers often (if not always) use expo, lower HS, lower pitch range and whatever they decide to do with the head. From the videos I've seen, of F3C flying, it still look quite challenging even with all those changes. Perhaps I'll make two videos, one with a F3C setup and one without.
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:19 PM   #48
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No disaggreement there. I suggested it 'cause this challenge reminds me of F3C flying. For hovering, F3C flyers often (if not always) use expo, lower HS, lower pitch range and whatever they decide to do with the head. From the videos I've seen, of F3C flying, it still look quite challenging even with all those changes. Perhaps I'll make two videos, one with a F3C setup and one without.
That's not a bad idea. I may try a second F3C setup myself and see how well I "improve"
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Old 11-01-2010, 09:13 PM   #49
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Default Nose in Tips

Hi all,

My name is Matt and I'm new to the site and Heli's too. I've flown a lot of planes and have decided to take the leap into Helicopters too. I have a Blade 400 and an Axe400 from Helimax which I have begun learning my basic flying skills on. I'm being very patient and have been hovering well with the exception of nose in hovering, which I've only attempted on the simulator. Does anyone have any good tips for nose in hovering? I have no problems at all flying planes directly towards me but Heli's is a much more challenging experience.
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Old 11-01-2010, 09:23 PM   #50
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When making corrections, move the stick to the side of the disc that is going down. That one helped me tons when i was learning
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:17 PM   #51
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Thanks Jasmine2501 and RĒzĒ, I understand both of these, I think.

I don't understand how the heli gets off while transitioning between the four orientations. I can just learn what the stick movements are (not really what I'm looking for) or just move to the FBL 500 (no challenge) but would prefer to acquire the knowledge of why the flybared heli moves in unexpected ways while transitioning between the orientations.

I notice that when I fly square circuits in the garage with the MSR (counterclockwise) that when I make a left turn I need right aileron to keep anywhere near a coordinated corner. I don't quite understand why. I'll keep trying and thinking about the dynamics while doing so.

I'm probably not the only one who wonders these things so anyone want to step in or just point me in the right direction, I realize this might not be the place to ask these questions. Don't mean to hijack here...

Thanks again for all the help

Dennis
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:18 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotorshake View Post
I notice that when I fly square circuits in the garage with the MSR (counterclockwise) that when I make a left turn I need right aileron to keep anywhere near a coordinated corner. I don't quite understand why. I'll keep trying and thinking about the dynamics while doing so.
Did you notice that the disk is not completely level when the helicopter is in hover? The heli has to lean to the right a bit (for main rotor going clockwise) to work against the thrust generated by the tail. The tail rotor counteracts the torque of the main rotor, but it doesn't generate torque, just force, so the net result is a force pushing the helicopter to the left which the pilot compensates using cyclic.

Now the same applies to turns. In left turns (again, considering main rotor going clockwise), the tail pushes the helicopter inwards, basically tightening the turn a bit. So compensating with right aileron may be needed. In right turns, the tail pushes the heli outwards so left cyclic may be needed.

The interesting consequence of this is that aileron tic-tocs are usually done "to the right", i.e. rotor facing the pilot, tail on the left because in this orientation the tail provides significant support for the helicopter.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:02 AM   #53
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Took a while to get the video loaded last night. I put together my son and my flights. Was interesting to try and well we forgot to count,

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Old 11-02-2010, 05:13 AM   #54
Rotorshake
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Thanks Chakotay,

It all came clear, thanks for your patience. I'm really not that dense just hadn't fully thought through.

Dennis
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Old 11-02-2010, 12:59 PM   #55
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My Turn...

This video really demonstrates that age is not your friend in this sport...

After watching it, I do realize that I did not spend nearly enough time at the points of the four point pirouette. The only part of the flight that is not completely terrible is the second slow pirouette (which is still pretty terrible).


I did cheat, by the way: I used an older, very heavy, fairly low performance helicopter, and the most precise Paddles and Tail Blades available (I wonder what those are?).


Sorry the video is fuzzy, but I did not shave today.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:30 PM   #56
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Great videos guys! I have lots of work to do to be as smooth as some of you.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:08 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbarnhart2001 View Post
Hi all,

My name is Matt and I'm new to the site and Heli's too. I've flown a lot of planes and have decided to take the leap into Helicopters too. I have a Blade 400 and an Axe400 from Helimax which I have begun learning my basic flying skills on. I'm being very patient and have been hovering well with the exception of nose in hovering, which I've only attempted on the simulator. Does anyone have any good tips for nose in hovering? I have no problems at all flying planes directly towards me but Heli's is a much more challenging experience.
Tips, be careful, practice lots, don't hit yourself, practice lots, Sim it a bunch, practice lots, don't hit anyone else, practice lots, and most important, have fun!

PS welcome to the freak my friend!
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:56 PM   #58
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Well, I still don't have any vid to add, and wont get my camera until later this month, I hope I won't be too late.

I think this thread is the best thing I've seen on HF in a while.

In fact, today I tried the challenge on my 450 in the wind and was able to control everything O.K., but not like I thought. I have trouble right side in.

As I was flying around a bit, I decided to save my last 2 packs for some basics and was astounded at how poorly I was able to fly some maneuvers I had stopped practicing because I was "beyond" them.

I'll spare the detals, but I think that the next challenge should be upright circles in ALL orientations/directions. I need to practice forward/backward inverted AND upright in at least one direction.

I am a firm believer that if I can FLY my heli (rather than repeat many comfortable maneuvers), I'll have a much larger bag of tricks to reach into when flying.
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Old 11-03-2010, 05:57 PM   #59
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Here is my first try in the back yard tonight...


Not as good as RĒzĒ, but hey, he is better than me so ... there you have it!
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Old 11-03-2010, 06:43 PM   #60
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Isn't that pole for your basketball net in a terrible spot?
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