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Old 03-22-2011, 01:40 PM   #41
jperkosk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UPGl2AYDD View Post
I rarely have the cash to spend $50+ for a set of packs and get multiples, and wait 3+ weeks for them to arrive.
...
I had parts of a 600E but had to sell out, stupid car... lol
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Originally Posted by Tomstoy2 View Post
If there is one thing at all that I have learned about this hobby, it's that you open your wallet and just pour out the contents. There is no such thing as saving money, just an urban myth.

That reminds me, I should really go to work if I want to stock up on these expensive gallon jugs of 20% nitro, or else I'll be selling my birds soon .
See you guys tomorrow!!!

P.S. How do I hide a new TR600N from Mrs? The heli guru @ the club suggested to give it to him for safe storage, do you think I should trust him?
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:49 PM   #42
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You might want to scrub that and just come clean up front.
Try to soften her up first with a nice gift, somethiong she really wants,,,, new frying pan or something.
Then again, you do got to sleep with this woman. To maximize your security at night it may take more than I suggest.
Hell, what do I know?
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:03 PM   #43
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I'll just tell her that my 600 felt lonely with my taking too long to build this 700, women do understand lonely, don't they?

Mrs has skipped the town for the long weekend visiting the daughters who are studying out of town, so I took the quick opportunity to get out of hiding and properly setup and test the new 600 and have remodeled the helicopter (formerly TV) room:



Anyway, back to work!
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:18 PM   #44
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Did anyone ever do the real cost of electric for say a 600? Like, how much is the electricity? How much might the chargers and batteries be, etc.

I'll do this for my 600, which I don't fly, but it is going to be a closer comparison.

From my latest electricity bill it says the following:

"How much electricity will I use next year, and how much will it cost?"

According to EON (My electricity provider.)
Electricity 9,557kWh used at a cost of £842.00

Equals net @ 8.8 pence per unit.

My 600 uses 4000 mAh (80%of my 5000 mAh battery) in 5 minutes, or 1 flight, at 8S, or 30V, approximately.

So, that should be 4Ah x 30, for Wh = 120Wh per flight.

So if it is 8.8 pence per 1000Wh, it must be 8.8 x (120/1000), which equals

Wait for it:

1.06 pence. Or nothing, to put it another way, lol. Sorry, forgot to include for inefficiencies at the charger at say 85%, that makes it 1.25 pence per flight.

So, my battery fleet is 4 x 5000 mAh 8S, which you can get for £65 now, and they should last, I would hope, 150 flights each, so I should get 600 flights from £260 worth of batteries. So this should be 43 pence per flight.

If I had two chargers, to really make use of the batteries effectively, I might go for
2 x 3010B at say £130 each, so £260 total. Add in a couple of server PSUs, lets say £50 each, and you can have a Raf style setup for £360.

Let's say I can reasonably expect these to last me 5 years, and I will conservatively only offer to do the 600 flights, mentioned above, per year. That makes this set-up good for 3000 flights, minimum, or 12 pence per flight.

So the real electric cost, for a 600, per flight, might be about.

1.25p
+43p
+12p

Or 56.25 pence per flight. Maybe around $0.70.

So if the figures were right for nitro, at $4.80, there would seem to be a significant saving for the electric guys at about 1/7th of the cost per flight. However, as Jonny has pointed out before, if you aren't gonna fly it, like me and my 600, nitro is a far cheaper option, lol.

Once I do start flying it though, and I get upto my 450 style numbers, as the 600 will effectively replace my 450 then 600 flights per year is going to seem a fairly conservative estimate.

Just thought I'd run the numbers. I hope I got them right.

and yes Tom, I know, it is a money pit whichever way you look at it, but I was curious to see what the real difference was.



Cheers

Sutty
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:51 PM   #45
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Cool Sut.

I just have to close that gap slightly, to give nitro a chance. Even though it's still miles cheaper.

A 5 litre bottle of fuel costs around £20 for a good brand of 20% nitro. With a 600, I've heard most people say they will go through about 9 tanks before they need a new 5 litre bottle. So 20 / 9 = £2.22 ($3.64) per flight.

So that brings nitro down a bit. Now nitro is £1.66 more expensive than electric per flight. Still way more...

The other thing is that no one can say for sure that those packs would last 150 flights each... I am going to bring that down to 125 each just to help the nitro out a bit

So £260 / 500 = 52p

Plus your other workings out = 65.25p

So, nitro works out at £1.57 MORE expensive PER flight. Still a huge gap, lol..

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Old 03-22-2011, 02:51 PM   #46
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The numbers look good, Sutty, if you're flying in your backyard. If you go to the field and want to have the type of field real-time charging flexibility that Raf has achieved you'll need to spend another $200-300 on the generator that will last you a year or two plus gasoline it will consume. All in all, I don't think it'll go over $1 per flight.

The nitro costs are real, but based on my particular situation, I pay $45 per US gallon and I get about 10 tanks from it. Sometimes it's 12-13 if some flights were shorter, but no more than that. As I'll start getting out further I think I'll be bringing back more fuel (safety, you can't see the tank from far away), so it might go up to 13-14 flights from a gallon, this will bring it to around $3.50 per flight, probably without sacrificing flight time (7-9 min) as I'll be leaning the mixture progressively more.
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:02 PM   #47
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Jerry, you brought in another factor that I forgot about. Flight time.

That would bring nitro slightly closer to electric because I think you get around 1 or 2 minutes more on a nitro than an electric. I might be wrong, but it's definitely another factor, which came into the discussion I read on another thread, which was a very indepth e vs n debate.

Jonny

EDIT: If you take into consideration what Jerry said about generators and fuel for the generator, plus (perhaps) the longer flight times on nitro, they are not far off equal. I still think electric is cheaper though. It just goes to show, nitro has gone from 7x more expensive per flight, to around, say, 2x more expensive. Things can just be twisted all ways and a proper experiment would have to be carried out to get the exact results. The other thread I was reading before, made nitro sound cheaper! Lol..
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:19 PM   #48
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Yep, missed a trick there on the flight times, but then again, I incuded the cost of one off purchased items, and amortised them over the cost of a bunch of flights. Aren't there a whole bunch off one of things for nitro too? 2 in 1, starter, more expensive engine, I think there may be more.

Even though I fly 8 batteries in a row, I am ready for a rest after each one, so I'm not too sure how well I would take to 8-10 minute flights, or even longer.

Food for thought anyway.

Oh, and my field is outside, so I have no need of these generator things. I know not of what you speak, lol.

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:26 PM   #49
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Great to see everyone jumping on Andrew's post, lol.

But very much missing the point, grabbing a few cents here and there will not straighten it out if you fly a lot. It simply is several times cheaper to fly electric, and it will cost you thousands more to fly nitro if you’re talking many hundreds of flights each season. Shelf queens will be cheaper though, indeed, lol. But that’s not really why we started this hobby, I guess.

Flight times ? Atoms for example fly 7-8 minutes on the normal packs, with way more power than nitros, which means that tuning them down to the same power level of an average nitro could make them fly longer. Something everybody seems to forget. Electricity ? Many clubs have power in the club house, or if you do mostly backyard flying you won't need a gen at all.

Turn it around whichever way you like, fuel is going up in price, packs are coming down, even now there's already no comparing possible in price, let alone in a few more months or years. Does anyone remember the miserable nicad days ? That’s not very long ago in fact. Look ahead now, right into the near future, think hard…
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:41 PM   #50
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Hey Denis, Sorry about this, we are all having fun over e vs n again. It is a never ending argument, and has many sides, but perhaps your 600 rebuild thread is not the place. I just remembered this was your build thread, so I am sorry we have all stomped all over it like this. I know we aren't ones to bother too much about these things normally, but perhaps enough is enough in your thread.

How is everything progressing?


Cheers

Sutty
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:48 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sutty View Post
Hey Denis, Sorry about this, we are all having fun over e vs n again. It is a never ending argument, and has many sides, but perhaps your 600 rebuild thread is not the place. I just remembered this was your build thread, so I am sorry we have all stomped all over it like this. I know we aren't ones to bother too much about these things normally, but perhaps enough is enough in your thread.

How is everything progressing?


Cheers

Sutty
+1 !
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:48 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jonnyheli View Post
A 5 litre bottle of fuel costs around £20 for a good brand of 20% nitro. With a 600, I've heard most people say they will go through about 9 tanks before they need a new 5 litre bottle. So 20 / 9 = £2.22 ($3.64) per flight.

So that brings nitro down a bit. Now nitro is £1.66 more expensive than electric per flight. Still way more...

The other thing is that no one can say for sure that those packs would last 150 flights each... I am going to bring that down to 125 each just to help the nitro out a bit

So £260 / 500 = 52p

Plus your other workings out = 65.25p

So, nitro works out at £1.57 MORE expensive PER flight. Still a huge gap, lol..

Jonny
Yep, and 125 flights sound overly conservative, Jonny, packs are getting cheaper and better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbird300 View Post
It simply is several times cheaper to fly electric, and it will cost you thousands more to fly nitro if you’re talking many hundreds of flights each season. Shelf queens will be cheaper though, indeed, lol. But that’s not really why we started this hobby, I guess.
+1 Raf. Ballpark 3 times the difference on the average for most people, I guess. You won't close it more than, Jonny, unless you live in some strange place like Venezuela where Chavez keeps the fuel price artificially low at about $0.02 per liter of petrol (that's right, I'm not mistaken here) to keep poor people from revolting... And yes, it adds up quickly if you fly a lot.
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:58 PM   #53
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I wasn't jumping Anderws post, neither was Jerry. It's clear that nitro is more expensive, not 7 x more expensive though. 3x, probably...

Btw, good point on the power thing. Flight times would probably be very close if you tuned an electric down.

Still, knowing these factors didn't stop me getting a nitro They're cool. Yes, I prefer electrics, I love the scary power the electrics have, I love how you just plug in the lipo and fly, I just prefer the electric experience. They're so clean and sofisticated and so 'new'.

There's actually very few things I don't like about electric, but the worst thing is this;

Person: Is it electric or petrol?
Me: Electric
Person: Oh...

Person: is it electric or petrol?
Me: Petrol.
Person: Ah cool!

Now, I know how top of the line these electrics are, but most people still think of electric as slow, underpowered nicad, toys... I cba to explain that they are the latest in technology electric motors and lipo batteries, and them looking like they don't care and like I'm talking Bo****ks.

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Old 03-22-2011, 04:03 PM   #54
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And I agree, sorry Denis I get carried away too easily.

Get some more pictures up, I want to see your bird being stripped down

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Old 03-22-2011, 04:40 PM   #55
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It's all Denis' fault, he's been stalling on his 600 rebuild much like myself on the 700 build, practically forcing us into E vs N debate again just to keep the thread alive, didn't he?

Jonny, I love my nitros, and they are probably the best for me under my specific circumstances, but I would like to have a couple of big Es as well! Not a good time, though, I promised myself almost a year ago not to jump onto any platform unless I had local support for it, it was previously the biggest impediment on my learning curve: small crash and wait 4 months to import some stupid part.

One more argument for Ns while we at it , they tend to keep the casual spectators further away, almost at the safe distance, happened to us at the club yesterday!!!
There was a brief moment when there were just a few electric planes buzzing around and at the far end a couple of kids jumped the low fence and got on the runway with a ball. Shouting had no effect, they were maybe 80m away and had no clue about why the large group of middle aged men got so exited all of the sudden. At the opposing end of the runway there was a guy starting his nitro scale plane, one of these decent size 2m jobs, and he didn't see the kids until he started rolling for the take-off. No worries, though, the kids have cleared the runway before the plane was 1/3 of the way moving towards them, took them less then 5 sec to appreciate the danger and move out of the way.
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnyheli View Post
There's actually very few things I don't like about electric, but the worst thing is this;

Person: Is it electric or petrol?
Me: Electric
Person: Oh...

Person: is it electric or petrol?
Me: Petrol.
Person: Ah cool!
Person: Is it electric or petrol?

Me: It is driven by nano-tech lithium polymer electrolyte/separator powerpacks with a Lithium Cobalt oxide nano-technology substrate complex, which in turn, by means of a microprocessor controlled, pulse width modulated electronic speed controller, powers the size wise most powerful electrical motor on this earth with individually calculated metal sheets that are optimized for the magnetic flux of the motor jacket, an optimized ventilation together with a high performance radial fan and an up to 300 degree Celsius heat resistant coil that allows high input voltage, using the newest magnet materials like Neodym magnets and an integrated (air cooling) ventilation system.

Person: Cool, you guys are from Nasa, I guess ?

Me: No, just an adult that refuses to grow up, having fun with a toy.
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:59 PM   #57
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I've been flying the 250 a lot lately, man, isn't it amazing how much more fun you can have with a slight raise in temperature. I love that little thing, you get all the joys of the big birds but almost 0 worries when flying it. Ok it's more vulnerable to wind but on a calm day it's very pleasant to fly!

All this talk about nitro has got me excited now, I am going to get some tanks through the 600 tomorrow. I need to get a big electric too! I hate being me, I want everything.

Oh and E vs N should not exists... It should be E and N

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Old 03-22-2011, 05:04 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbird300 View Post
Person: Is it electric or petrol?

Me: It is driven by nano-tech lithium polymer electrolyte/separator powerpacks with a Lithium Cobalt oxide nano-technology substrate complex, which in turn, by means of a microprocessor controlled, pulse width modulated electronic speed controller, powers the size wise most powerful electrical motor on this earth with individually calculated metal sheets that are optimized for the magnetic flux of the motor jacket, an optimized ventilation together with a high performance radial fan and an up to 300 degree Celsius heat resistant coil that allows high input voltage, using the newest magnet materials like Neodym magnets and an integrated (air cooling) ventilation system.

Person: Cool, you guys are from Nasa, I guess ?

Me: No, just an adult that refuses to grow up, having fun with a toy.
Wow I think I just blew a hole in my pants! I'll have to remember that one! Cheers Raf!

Jonny
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:17 PM   #59
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Guys, stop it. Man that's funny Raf.

E


Sutty
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:40 PM   #60
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You Guys!!

Having a break from the 600 till I can go out and get those cleaning supplies and pipe polishing products.

Infact, let me try and get back on track with a check list.

1. Wire Wool for pipe polishing
2. Windex for cleaning of frames servo wires etc.
3. Alcohol for cleaning off old threadlock.
4. Paper Towels - Guess lint free would be better?
5. Feel I'm missing something? Something for the engine parts maybe, or shouldI just give them a wipe with a paper towel?

Better go back to the second page where I think that info was

EDIT : Haha...it was bottom of first page!! Anyone know where I canget this alcohol cleaner from?? Wou;d somewhere like B&Q have it or is it not for DIY'ers?

Cheers
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