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Old 01-22-2012, 06:22 PM   #41
James Kovach
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The same difference in buying 30% nitro vs 10% nitro for a nitro 90. Better performance.

Even at $20 a gallon for SEF vs $30 a gallon nitro, the saving is pretty substantial. A gallon of SEF will get you 3.5 hours of flying on average. A gallon of nitro will get you 1.5 at most if I remember correctly. Twice the flying for less money.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:55 PM   #42
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The same difference in buying 30% nitro vs 10% nitro for a nitro 90. Better performance.
I found no difference and in my opinion its more like the comparison of 30% cool power to 30% rotor rage. But those were my findings for myself and I don't discourage anyone from using it if they want to.

Quote:
Even at $20 a gallon for SEF vs $30 a gallon nitro, the saving is pretty substantial. A gallon of SEF will get you 3.5 hours of flying on average. A gallon of nitro will get you 1.5 at most if I remember correctly. Twice the flying for less money.
That's all true, but buy gas at $4 a gallon and you've saved another 5 fold over SEF. - that's alot more miles and smiles

What I find interesting is that you don't mind spending even $80 a bucket for this fuel in your own words yet you think its alot of money to pay $250 in your own words to get a G26 modified motor. You could save dollars running regular fuel to save up for the modification (heck, its only about 15 gallons of SEF) and send that motor you won to Toxic (your preference) and get a modified 26 which will make more power any day on regular gas than a 231 motor on SEF. .

That would be the logic I would use if it was me. Going back to what you posted:

Quote:
If I was a dealer, then I would have paid the same price as your buddy Larry did as he is a dealer. I did not. And Larry knows that, which means you do as well, as i was shocked at the dealer cost.
I don't find any difference in that. You said you paid $50 for your SEF and Larry paid $44 for his ($6 difference shock?) at dealer cost BUT he PICKED it up right at the plant in NJ where its distributed. He had to drive there and you betcha his truck burned more than 6 bucks worth of gas to get there. You bought it from Ohio and they had to pay for shipping to get it there, so it would make sense that perhaps they purchased 10 buckets for $440 and paid $60 in shipping to get them there hence dealer cost in Ohio being $50. Maybe they gave you the first bucket at dealer cost so you could try it and spread the word, and subsequent purchases you've had to pay $80 which might be where your statement comes in "I don't mind paying $80 for it".

In closing, thank you for bringing SEF to the attention of modelers. Its certainly an option to coleman fuel for those who want to use it.

-=>Raja.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:34 PM   #43
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In closing, thank you for bringing SEF to the attention of modelers. Its certainly an option to coleman fuel for those who want to use it.

-=>Raja.
+1 on that. I'd never heard of SEF before but then again, it wasn't something I was looking for as I'm not interested in the Coleman option, given the pro's and cons I've read about it. Still, it's nice to have the option and who knows, I might give it a try at some point.

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Old 01-23-2012, 03:08 PM   #44
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I'm not interested in the Coleman option, given the pro's and cons I've read about it
out of curiosity, what were the "cons" you read about?
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:21 PM   #45
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I found no difference and in my opinion its more like the comparison of 30% cool power to 30% rotor rage. But those were my findings for myself and I don't discourage anyone from using it if they want to.
Five others have told me that they seen a substantial improvement vs Coleman and Pump Gas. So......

5 out of 6 Gasser Heli Flyers say there is a substantial improvement when using SEF.



Quote:
That's all true, but buy gas at $4 a gallon and you've saved another 5 fold over SEF. - that's alot more miles and smiles
Quantity vs Quality. You obviously choose Quantity. Myself and others prefer Quality.

Quote:
What I find interesting is that you don't mind spending even $80 a bucket for this fuel in your own words yet you think its alot of money to pay $250 in your own words to get a G26 modified motor. You could save dollars running regular fuel to save up for the modification (heck, its only about 15 gallons of SEF) and send that motor you won to Toxic (your preference) and get a modified 26 which will make more power any day on regular gas than a 231 motor on SEF. .

That would be the logic I would use if it was me.

Your logic makes no sense to me. I know what I am going to get when I spend my money on SEF and I believe it is worth my money.

On the other hand, you have told me what to expect from your modified 26 and do not deem it worth my money. Do not get me wrong, I am not apposed to going to a modified 26, 29 or even higher CC engine, provided that it is modified to operate within the parameters I expect. So when that engine becomes available and someone has shown me how it performs, I will then spend my money on one I am NOT interested in an engine that has an RPM ceiling of 12,200-12,500 rpm.

Quote:
Going back to what you posted:

I don't find any difference in that. You said you paid $50 for your SEF and Larry paid $44 for his ($6 difference shock?) at dealer cost BUT he PICKED it up right at the plant in NJ where its distributed. He had to drive there and you betcha his truck burned more than 6 bucks worth of gas to get there. You bought it from Ohio and they had to pay for shipping to get it there, so it would make sense that perhaps they purchased 10 buckets for $440 and paid $60 in shipping to get them there hence dealer cost in Ohio being $50. Maybe they gave you the first bucket at dealer cost so you could try it and spread the word, and subsequent purchases you've had to pay $80 which might be where your statement comes in "I don't mind paying $80 for it".
WOW, you have one heck of an imagination.


Quote:
In closing, thank you for bringing SEF to the attention of modelers. Its certainly an option to coleman fuel for those who want to use it.

-=>Raja.
Well you are welcome .


But with all of this, you are still dodging my request. Please share your data with us. Show us all the information you use to draw your conclusions so we can understand better. I still fail to see why you are reluctant to do so.
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:14 PM   #46
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On the other hand, you have told me what to expect from your modified 26 and do not deem it worth my money. Do not get me wrong, I am not apposed to going to a modified 26, 29 or even higher CC engine, provided that it is modified to operate within the parameters I expect. So when that engine becomes available and someone has shown me how it performs, I will then spend my money on one I am NOT interested in an engine that has an RPM ceiling of 12,200-12,500 rpm.
I said above "and send that motor you won to Toxic (your preference) and get a modified 26". Didn't you see the whiplash at IRCHA with the Toxic 27RC??

When you say:

Quote:
when that engine becomes available and someone has shown me how it performs, I will then spend my money on one
What's the matter, didn't you like the Toxic 27?

As far as my data, I said it before then decided to edit it out, so you keep asking so I'll put back the Sienfeld line:

No data for you

-=>Raja.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:07 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by carey shurley View Post
out of curiosity, what were the "cons" you read about?
Hi Carey, how's it going?

Ok, probably a poor choice of words on my part. I've read a number of conversations on the subject that at the time, to me, seemed to imply that the Coleman fuel might not be consistent in terms of octane ratings and that it may not be recommended by the engine manufacturers or at least, some of the model manufacturers. If I've mis-read/interpreted that, oh well! Either way, the Coleman fuel is also going to be more expensive than pump gas. I've wanted a Gasser heli for a long time and finally got off my arse and bought one. It's Chris Bergens Gasser EB with a Hanson engine and Edge 813 blades and I "love" it. It's not a hot rod by any stretch of the imagination but it performs well overall and, given a bit of space, will actually build up a pretty good head of steam in forward flight. It's also one of the best autoing birds I've ever owned with those 813 blades on it, in spite of it's ~15lb bulk. Anyway, one of "my" main motivations for going gas is the cost of fuel. Switching to a specialty fuel that brings me back up to something close to glo fuel prices (yeah, I know, I get longer flight times for a given amount of fuel but I don't care!) seems counter productive, especially when it appears that the one thing that Rbort and Sparx seem to agree on in their long winded saga of a conversation is that a general sport flyer such as myself, isn't going to see any significant difference in performance. So, for now, I'll just stick with the local gas station!

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Old 01-23-2012, 09:18 PM   #48
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Quit simply, I did not see anything in that video that my current engine could not do with the same authority. Why spend money to get the same level of performance? But that is not really your question. Your questions is why did I not spend the $250 extra to get an engine I won modified from Hanson.... NOT Toxic Al. As I stated before, Hansons engine, as per your comments, is not going to operate within the parameters that I expect.

In time, when I deem is financially feasible, I will try one of Toxics 26 engines as his engines are more apt to perform withing my expect parameters and decide for myself if the 26 cc is worth the extra money over the 23cc.

Quote:
As far as my data, I said it before then decided to edit it out, so you keep asking so I'll put back the Sienfeld line:

No data for you
Then do not expect myself or anyone else to give your comments any level of credibility. I certainly see your "true colors shining through ".
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:34 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by sparx- View Post
Then do not expect myself or anyone else to give your comments any level of credibility. I certainly see your "true colors shining through ".
But you seem to assume that everyone is going to take what you say on this subject as gospel, like you're the definitive "expert" on the subject?

I went back and looked through this conversation again to make sure I didn't miss something somewhere. Actually, Raja did post some numbers in this conversation back in post #22 and you totally dismissed them. Why would he, or any of us, think that you'd give any credibility to anything else he could post here? All "you've" done is state that in your 3D flying, you've gotten better performance out of the SEF fuels but you haven't posted one bit of data to back that up one way or the other. You've stated your own subjective "opinion" on how your helicopter "feels" one way or the other which doesn't "prove" anything either!! At least, right or wrong, Raja did post something. You haven't posted anything in the way of numbers to back up what you've been saying.

For the record, I'm not saying either one of you is right or wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you both have offered your opinions on the subject based on your own experiences which is nothing more than what 98% of us do every time we type anything up on this forum and click "submit reply."

As for Raja's credibility? I've read "many" posts from him on this forum and as far as I can tell, he's well respected, at least as much as anyone around here is. I'm don't necessarily agree with everything he posts here but that's not saying he's wrong in those instances. It's just that there are often different ways to acheive a given goal with our models and what he might recommend may not be the way I'd do it but that doesn't make either of us wrong. You like the SEF fuels and are willing to pay for it. I don't think Raja ever said he didn't like the SEF fuels, only that it wasn't worth it to him to pay for it. I would tend to agree with that. As I said in a previous post, neither side is going to convince the other.

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Old 01-24-2012, 01:18 AM   #50
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Cancelling my Netflix and cable.........
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:21 AM   #51
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:37 PM   #52
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But you seem to assume that everyone is going to take what you say on this subject as gospel, like you're the definitive "expert" on the subject?
I assume nothing of the sort. I have stated countless times that what I post are my subjective opinions and to take them for what they are worth to you.

Quote:
I went back and looked through this conversation again to make sure I didn't miss something somewhere. Actually, Raja did post some numbers in this conversation back in post #22 and you totally dismissed them. Why would he, or any of us, think that you'd give any credibility to anything else he could post here?
What he posted was "results". I asked him to post the "data" that he used to derive his "results". I certainly hope that he would not use that "test" as an example as he only did 2 runs per "test".

Quote:
All "you've" done is state that in your 3D flying, you've gotten better performance out of the SEF fuels but you haven't posted one bit of data to back that up one way or the other. You've stated your own subjective "opinion" on how your helicopter "feels" one way or the other which doesn't "prove" anything either!!
No where I have claimed that what I post on a subject is just that, my subjective opinion based on my skill and knowledge. The worth of the information is to be determined by the reader.

Quote:
At least, right or wrong, Raja did post something. You haven't posted anything in the way of numbers to back up what you've been saying.
I will gladly post "numbers" to back up what I say if you can help me figure out how to measure the things I have made comments about. How do I measure on fuels throttle response to the other? How do I measure how one fuel allows the engine to take a load better than the other? How do I measure that when running on a specific fuel, the engine has a better tone and sounds happier? How do I measure that one fuel has a quicker response to maneuvers with direction changes such as a Rainbow? See these are things that are of interest to me when I am flying. Not how many rpm the head will spin at after climbing 1000 feet.

Quote:
For the record, I'm not saying either one of you is right or wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you both have offered your opinions on the subject based on your own experiences which is nothing more than what 98% of us do every time we type anything up on this forum and click "submit reply."
I couldn't agree more. But there are some here that want you to believe that their opinions are based on "tests" which they believe are in some form "scientific" because they produce "data" and therefore are irrefutable.


I'll take a pass on the rest
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:17 PM   #53
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First of all sparx, the sad thing is that the reason you ask for something is not because you want to learn anything but because you want to nit pick it. Those are your colors unfortunately ...

In any case when you say:

Quote:
What he posted was "results". I asked him to post the "data" that he used to derive his "results". I certainly hope that he would not use that "test" as an example as he only did 2 runs per "test".
Rest assured I flew entire tanks not just 2 minutes and did several climbouts throughout each tank. Peak rpms are stored in the gv-1 once you reach the peak you can do several more runs and see if you can break it. If you can't then that's that and during the tank you can reset the peak and try again to see what you can come up with.

Also it was not just climbouts, you betcha I flew the heli in all sorts of maneuvers as well to see how it feels and how it reacts to my flying. I can also do climbing tic tocs though they are not my favorite moves and a whole bunch of other things just like you. By the way, contrary to your beliefs, I think piro flips need very little power - you could do them just as well in your 30 with a G20 motor.

Fact of my matter is, notice the word "my", the fuel did not make ANY significant difference worth its cost. I would say it was negligable NOT significant as you put it and with that said I'd like to put you to a challenge:

Next time we are at a funfly together I'll bring 2 gas tanks one with SEF and the other with regular gas both mixed with the same oil content. I'll fuel your helicopter for you and you can go fly a few fights and tell me which gas is SEF and which is the regular stuff. I'll fuel it so you don't see which can I'm putting the fuel from and we can have at it for a day or however many flights you do in a day and you write down the flight numbers and what fuel you think it is and later we'll compare. You won't look at temperature in your TX while you fly, just do your thing and see if you can tell from throttle respose, recovery or load taking.

How's that sound? Since you don't want to measure it by anything else but feel this is your only way to tell. I myself feel like I can do more than just how does it feel hence why I have flight experience with it as well as additional flight data to help solidify what I experienced. I have no reason to worry about you taking any credibility in anything that I say, I do what I do for myself and share it here, some people like to see the data, you don't so no worries.

-=>Raja.
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Last edited by rbort; 01-25-2012 at 10:59 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:42 AM   #54
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never mind
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:03 PM   #55
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Default I saw what you said before...but...Hmmm...

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never mind
Did someone get to ya?

-=>Raja.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:54 PM   #56
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no i decided to keep my 2 cents 2 myself.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:22 PM   #57
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Cool Just for the record

I agree with what you said totally

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Old 02-11-2012, 12:16 AM   #58
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Seems to me ,,ANYTHING Sparx has anything to do with just rattles people's cages for some reason. Why is that ? I would think a Rep of any sort ,, never mind CENTURY would have a much better business sense then that. But as usual he is a Bull in a China shop [no pun intended] when it comes to relating to people and is always on the defensive as a result. He is always trying to defend his last statement with criticisms against the people that respond to him. . I would think he would have gotten the hint ,,years ago,,,,,,again ,,,,YEARS AGO<<<but I guess he is just a slow learner. Why would anyone with his behavior on this and other forums think he knows anything?? Many dismiss him totally. Is it because he knows nothing,,,hardly. Why then? He does it to himself.,, He is his own worst enemy unfortunately.,,, or is it he is crying out for help and attention? good grief,,,,,
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:11 AM   #59
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Seems to me ,,ANYTHING Sparx has anything to do with just rattles people's cages for some reason. Why is that ? I would think a Rep of any sort ,, never mind CENTURY would have a much better business sense then that. But as usual he is a Bull in a China shop [no pun intended] when it comes to relating to people and is always on the defensive as a result. He is always trying to defend his last statement with criticisms against the people that respond to him. . I would think he would have gotten the hint ,,years ago,,,,,,again ,,,,YEARS AGO<<<but I guess he is just a slow learner. Why would anyone with his behavior on this and other forums think he knows anything?? Many dismiss him totally. Is it because he knows nothing,,,hardly. Why then? He does it to himself.,, He is his own worst enemy unfortunately.,,, or is it he is crying out for help and attention? good grief,,,,,
I could say the same thing about Raja, and have to wonder about what his affiliate (Minair) think. I know for a fact that many of their team also do not find his continual confrontation with sparx to be rather tasteless.

They both seem to get under each others craw for some reason, but I have never seen Sparx make a personal attack on Raja. That said, it seems that Raja does have more stroker that follow him around and fuel his ego.

Of note also, is that I have never seen sparx post a thread that is self promoting. By that I mean to start a thread in a gasser forum, about something not related to gasoline helis, in order to promote himself.

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Old 02-11-2012, 12:22 PM   #60
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Here is a good way to test power, and i look forward to a report of your findings...

Take a video camera and record yourself running up ten flights of stairs non-stop. No pauses, no breaks, no slowing down allowed. Time per flight of stairs should be the same each level. Full sprint only, no loafing or sandbagging to save energy for your finish.

I cant wait for the video to exhibit your results.
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