Don't like the smell of Gasoline?.......

[Tyler]

I'd settle for a four story stair sprint.

[MotorRotor]

That is more like a straight line course sprint, which is more like straight fast forward flight aerobatics.

In relation to helis and their power systems, a better test would be to go on a flat gym floor, accelerate to top speed in 10 meters, come to a complete stop in one step, accelerate in the opposite direction to top speed in 10 meters, come to a complete stop and repeat until you have ran a total100 meters. This is more like the power demands for a hard tic-tock in 3D.

This will take a lot more out of you and your legs then a simple sprint over the same 100 meter distance. Ditto for the power system in the straight vertical climb compared to a prolonged tick-tock.

In one case how quickly a power system recovers does not come into play while in the other it does.

From all the different threads that I have read, with the power discussions between Raja and Sparx, it has been basically this that is at the core of their disagreements. Raja's opinions are relative to the easier straight sprint, while sparx's opinions are relative to the tick-tock demands,

[turboomni]

Quote::They both seem to get under each others craw for some reason, but I have never seen Sparx make a personal attack on Raja. That said, it seems that Raja does have more stroker that follow him around and fuel his ego.,,Quote

Ego is not the proper word. Experience is the proper word. There has been a competition in the recent past between them. And Raja he won,,fine. I have flown with him many times and know of his vast experience. So many have been helped by him and amazed by him. He has a very long history of advancing the gasser heli well before it was popular.
I saw him fly his gassers while I was addicted it alcohol and nitro many years ago. I was amazed with his command with a heavy gas heli and what he could do so very well with less power than a nitro and frankly show up most nitro pilots .
He is not a flash in the pan. He was here LONG before sparx and is a very dedicated pilot. He has many gasser innovations under his belt to make gassers and all heli's better ,,the most obvious is the Jewel Genorator. His rap sheet over the years is impressive.

[turboomni]

I goofed sorry guys

[Tyler]

I don't understand what is wrong with my post or concept.

Sparx claims that a full collective climb out does not require power. Raja believes it does. I suggested Sparx quantify his opinion by "feeling" the concept of power to overcome gravity during a long steady increase in elevation. Since we don't have wings, stairs is the most reasonable option to fight gravity and consume power. The video will validate the level of exhaustion during the test. Everyone knows that after four flights of stairs, let alone ten (Raja suggests a long climb-out) we use lots of energy and oxygen (fuel). I want to see if Sparx can do this without exhaustion. I certainly can't, but I fully infer that a constant task is taxing.

On the other hand, climbing those same flights of stairs with the option of stopping, starting, pausing, loading, unloading will certainly provide the opportunity to recover and take a few extra breaths. This would equate to 3D flight.

Arguably, the greatest engine tuner of all time once told me the best way to load an engine was to enter fast forward flight and fly four consecutive "Blue Angels" loops, each one progressively larger. During a training session he told our group that 3D flying will not load and engine properly to determine if it is tuned. This is the cliff notes version of those comments.

Perhaps Curtis Yougnblood doesn't know a thing about loading an engine and setting needles. NOT!!

Oh, by the way, Sparx, good luck trying to get someone as friendly and helpful as the Ice Man himself to post all his testing data for you to rip it apart.

Sparx, where is your scientific data? Be willing to do that which you request from others, "So that we might all learn."

If one has watched a dyno test performed on larger engines it should be noted that they keep a constant resistance on the engine, they spool up and keep the pedal to the metal. No Willie-nillie on-the-power/off-the-power pin-ball-machine resistance such as Sparx is suggesting.

Tyler

[turboomni]

Tyler there is nothing wrong with your post,,it was me that was wrong.

Too late at night when I responded and did not understand the context ,,,sorry again Tyler

My Bad I will remove the post.

[Pinecone]

Power is weight-distance per time.

So a full power climb for a timed altitude gain is the definition of power.

But since you are at full throttle, and full pitch, RPM differences INDICATE power differences.

[Tyler]

Turboomni, no problem. Context is important.

[James Kovach]

All I am going to say to turboomni is..... The length of time someone has done something does not dictate how skilled he is at doing it and that your other opinions of Raja are not shared by everyone. And there is nothing wrong with that. Opinions are based on perspective at times. And from YOUR perspective, Raja is Omnipotent to you.

Tyler.......

Sparx claims that a full collective climb out does not require power.

I never made such a claim. What I stated was...... "I would not expect you to see any difference in a full collective climb. That is not pushing the engine." and "Doing full collective climbs does not put nearly as much load on and engine as doing other maneuvers"

That is not saying it does not require power. To even state that would be crazy. To move ANYTHING, it requires power. What I am saying is that a full collective climb is not as strenuousness on an engine as many other maneuvers that can be done.

Now about all this stair climbing/running whatever stuff. In this situation you are laying out, 90% of the people reading this would be going slower at the end of your "task", be it 4 flights or 10 flights. Yet Raja has stated a number of times that the longer you allow your heli to climb, the higher MAX rpm you will get. So what can your "task" tell us about the other? I fail to see any similarities between these two things.

Arguably, the greatest engine tuner of all time once told me the best way to load an engine was to enter fast forward flight and fly four consecutive "Blue Angels" loops, each one progressively larger. During a training session he told our group that 3D flying will not load and engine properly to determine if it is tuned. This is the cliff notes version of those comments.

Perhaps Curtis Yougnblood doesn't know a thing about loading an engine and setting needles. NOT!!

I agree 100% with what is stated above. And I cannot recall every stating anything that would say otherwise.

But if you are trying to say that 4 big loops loads and engine the same as a full collective climb out, then I have to disagree with that. If that was the case, Curtis would have said to just do some full collective climb outs. You also have to consider his statements in the context they are given in. They are training sessions. So you have to assume a certain skill level. Doing loops is something most people can do. Stringing together a bunch of power demanding 3D maneuvers is most likely not something in that group could do.

If you ever get a chance to talk to some of the people I have helped with tuning their gas engines, you will see that the method is pretty similar to what Curtis was telling you.

Oh, by the way, Sparx, good luck trying to get someone as friendly and helpful as the Ice Man himself to post all his testing data for you to rip it apart.

And just what data do you think he would have to offer? Do you really think he is out there with a bunch of measuring equipment? I have spent quite a bit of time talking with Curtis over the years and at no point did he ever mention that he used any testing equipment.

Sparx, where is your scientific data? Be willing to do that which you request from others, "So that we might all learn."

If you care to read back, you will see I am not claiming I am doing any "scientific testing". That is Raja's claim, not mine. I have stated in one way, shape or form.... My findings/results (or whatever you want to call them) are based on my subjective opinion which is based on my knowledge and skill. It is up to the reader to decide if my opinions hold any value to them.

Dynos will not tell me what I am looking for. I am fully aware of that.

Power is weight-distance per time.

So a full power climb for a timed altitude gain is the definition of power.

But since you are at full throttle, and full pitch, RPM differences INDICATE power differences

I could not agree more. If you can hold all those things CONSTANT from one run to another, then yes, you could use it to see some power differences for that particular situation. But there is the problem. Keeping everything Constant. Flying to the same height over a given time. Raja is not timing how long it takes to get to a specific height.

He is not even measuring the height that he stops at. He just says that is about 500 ft. Do you think he can call the height of something at 500ft to less than =/- 50 ft? How about +/- 100 ft at 1000'? What kind of difference does all this make to his max recorded RPM with the GV1? He says the longer you let it climb the better the final rpm. So if you give one model 100' more in a climb, how much of an advantage did you give it?

There is no way to know that each run is using the same amount of pitch thru the climb as well. How much pitch is being introduced by the flybar or flybarless controller to correct for wind and such? He has stated before that even half a degree of pitch can make the difference in 50 rpm or so.


Look, honestly, Raja does not need to justify anything to me. He is reluctant to do so, so that tells me a lot right there. It is up to you and me to decide if you place any value to his findings.

Same goes with me. I do not have to justify my statements and I know full well I cannot. There is no way to measure the things I am talking about. So you have to either trust that with my skill and knowledge that I am able to observe the things I am talking about or you can call it a bunch of BS. Either way is fine with me.

Same can be said about ANYONE posting opinions in these and other forums. 90% of what people post in these and other forums are opinions based on what they have experienced. And it is up to you to decide what value it has to you.

[MotorRotor]

Originally Posted by turboomni

Quote::They both seem to get under each others craw for some reason, but I have never seen Sparx make a personal attack on Raja. That said, it seems that Raja does have more stroker that follow him around and fuel his ego.,,Quote

Ego is not the proper word. Experience is the proper word. There has been a competition in the recent past between them. And Raja he won,,fine. I have flown with him many times and know of his vast experience. So many have been helped by him and amazed by him. He has a very long history of advancing the gasser heli well before it was popular.
I saw him fly his gassers while I was addicted it alcohol and nitro many years ago. I was amazed with his command with a heavy gas heli and what he could do so very well with less power than a nitro and frankly show up most nitro pilots .
He is not a flash in the pan. He was here LONG before sparx and is a very dedicated pilot. He has many gasser innovations under his belt to make gassers and all heli's better ,,the most obvious is the Jewel Genorator. His rap sheet over the years is impressive.

I am not questioning Raja's experience, as I know a lot of fellows who have a lot of experience and I have been flying with many myself, since 1985. I have flown sport aerobatics, through to FAI and in the last 8 years have been pushing myself in 3D. Consequently I have experienced the demands each type of flying has on different power systems.

I have seen both Sparx and Raja fly, and the type of flying sparx does is a lot more demanding on a heli and its power system.

Please also reread my example of two different demands on a power system. It had nothing to do with climbing a stairs. My example was performance on a level gym floor and running a straight 100 meters, with only one acceleration to top speed and only one stop. This was compared to also running 100 meter, but now consisting of 10 sections where you accelerate in to top speed, run the 10 meters, stop abruptly, and CHANGE to go the OPPOSITE direction, accelerating again to top speed etc....10 times. Accelerating to top speed is a lot more demanding on a human or a machine then is cruising at that speed over a distance.

Both require power, but it is used differently so may require different power systems. Note that a different power SYSTEM is not just the motor, but entails other things also...gearing, blade sizes, loading etc.

That is why OS make different engines of the SAME size, that are optimized for FAI or 3D. Ditto for the different exhaust systems that Hatori, Funtech and others make for these engines.

As for ego. You can have an "experienced" fellow with a larger ego then that of a less "experienced" fellow. Why I use the word EGO, is because of threads Raja has started in the gasser forum on Rumpryder, that had nothing to really do with gas helis. They were clearly posted, to either show himself in a good light, or to just get Mark Ryder more hits on his site. Those aqre the tyupe of posts that I know CY would never even think of posting. Why? Because he is not only very knowledgeable, but doe not have to stroke his ego or have others do so. He is a man that is very comfortable in his own shoes.

You can also have experienced fellows who learn something new from less experienced fellows. I know for a fact that CY will freely admit that he has. at times, over the years.

[Tyler]

Is it just me or does Sparx just seem to argue into infinity?

Sorry, Sparx, I cannot allow you to take what I have said and add your own speculations, especially about my time spent with the Ice Man. You assume the context of this session, and all of your assumptions are also wrong. Everything you stated about my example and experience is downright wrong. No need to add to what I said.

I have concluded in this discussion and others that I have followed that Sparx is full of inaccurate and personal assumptions and opinions that are not sustainable or verifiable. When these opinions fall short of the discussion Sparx then resorts to platitudes of great magnitudes. Look it up to fully understand what I mean, if necessary.

Having said that, I will now gracefully bow out of this discussion because I see Sparx chasing his tail, and quite frankly, I find this very exhausting and annoying. Hearing a person agree with what he disagrees only to disagree with what he agrees with is simply deflating.

And to beat Sparx to the classic exit line... "This is just my opinion and you don't have to agree with it."

Tyler

[James Kovach]

I was gonna post a reply to you Tyler... but honestly, you opinion of me does not matter to me and it is your right to have that opinion.

What matters. What really matters. Is when the skids hit the ground. And I have no problem when it comes to that

[MotorRotor]

Hmmmm..we have now drifted so far from the original topic, that I think this thread should be closed.

[James Kovach]

Done