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Old 04-23-2013, 07:33 AM   #101
sutty
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Nice one Denis. Can't wait. You know how I love videos. Don't do a me though.

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:54 AM   #102
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Lol...what do you mean? I can't do a you, I beleive you did a me! I'm itching to get out, so really hoping the wind drops off a bit before sundown. Maybe I'll dig that hat cam out now, as I have some spare time.

Anyway, funds were a bit low so I just ordered the parrallel board with XT60's. Couldn't justify spending extra money to make more work for myself. Got enough going on as it is!! Will come back to the full EC3 conversion later in the year.

Will stick to the XT60's for now, so hopefully, this board won't become redundant once I do convert fully. Hoping it can be modified to accept EC3 connectors, or I can make some XT60 to EC3 adaptors, then it will take both type's.

Seems I lost a Deans to XT60 adaptor lead, which I need to charge the 600 flight pack. So had my soldering iron out, quickly made a new one, and the pack is now on charge. Thankfully, I can definately get on with setup on the 600 next.

Enjoying my week off work so far
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:03 PM   #103
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Well, the wind died down, so I ditched the 600 and went to the field. Very pleased with how it went, tried not to get too excited, and I think I managed to capture my first 4 point tik-toc on the 3rd pack (@3m40s) Very sloppy, started to loose it on 2nd point, but pulled it back on the 3rd, and just about managed to get to the 4th. Not very tidy, but it's definately progress and much easier with the idel 2 higher HS setup

Definately less vibes from the main gear, I reprogrammed the gyro delay, just to make sure it was set for small electric heli, with no delay (as it's hooked upto a fast digital servo. Delay is recommended for slower analogue). Was still getting some oscillation when pitch pumping, so I dropped the gain to +25% (HH) on the DX8 from 31%, and I now think it's the most solid tail I've ever setup for straight forward flying around. However, I did get some oscillation when doing the tik-tocs. Hope those of you watching on a big screen can pick it up, and maybe advise if any ideas. Not sure if I'm happy with piro speed either, so will need to read up on how to adjust that. Hoping it's as simple as adjusting the ATV's in the TX, as I've used that programming method on a previous gyro (think it was the Logitech2100).



Obvioulsy I managed to dig out my camera earlier. Charged it up and realised the memory card wasnt in it. Spent an extra 20 mins locating it. Eventually showed up, but time was getting on by this point Couldn't find a suitable hat to stick it too with velcro, so I found a novel way to stick it to the front of my jacket (Picture below to explain). Think the results are passable (if your watching full screen on a +27" monitor). Think I forgot to clean the lens, as normally the focus is a little better, despite the fantastic sony continuous autofocus feature that we all know and love to hate

Came down a little hard at the end of the 4th pack. I got caught out as I thought I was going to get a really smooth landing, but it popped up and caught me unaware. Slightly over reacted on the throttle and just came down a bit hard with the tail blades hitting the grass. Checked it there and then for damage and I think I got away with it. Just twisted the tail gear housing on the boom. Will loosen screw, or screws I think on the PRO, put it back to 90 degrees, re-threadlock screws and it should be good to go again. Of course, will be checking the output shaft for possible bend when I next fly it.



And the newly invented chestcam....





Bon Apetite
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:05 PM   #104
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Hi Denis

There is a plastic pin that goes through into the hole in the boom at the back, and one that fits in the slot at the front, inside the boom block. If it shifted, one of these must be snapped off. No biggy, it just might be rattling around inside your boom though, so watch out for that.

I was always snapping the back one, so I bought a metal replacement, but have never used it, because the plastic spare one that I alreeady had in my box is somehow still going strong, about a year later, lol. Sods law, try to plan in advance, and never break it again.

As for the flying, I was really impressed. The few opportunities you have had to fly has made no difference as far as I could see. Just loved the continuous piros into piro flips from both upright and inverted. Sooooo jealous, that is really going to spur me on to push at those. I just can time the in, when it is already going around. Getting there, but nothing like yours. Being able to do that really makes piro flips come alive, if you ask me, and considering how long I've been trying, I need to up my game!

4 points, good effort, and at least you tried to get into the 4th point. I can do 3 points and have been able to do for ages, and I can get that far quite well, but I need to do it on the sim until point 4 is second nature, because I find myself already thinking about how to go into it as I am at point 2, and I think, I don't know what to do when I get there, so by point 3 I've bottled it, and so I cannot enter it. Problem is I never go on the sim, lol.

I'll have to fly the 250 more, but multi point tick tocks are tough with the 250. I can't try it with the 450 set-up for FPV. Too much weight now, and potentially too expensive in a crash anyway. Got away with an 80 F-L order, but that was doubling, tripling and even quadrupling up on a bunch of things, so much less in reality. Still I can use the 250 to try and learn the pesky continuous piro into the piro flip. Congrats again on those.

Chestcam worked well. I was surprised, because I'd considered chestcam for the GPH3, but I figured that will never work, we move our heads and not our bodies, so it will never track up and down or left and right. Worked well enough for you though.

Bet you were delighted with the outcome today. Keep it up, loved it.

Oh, I could just see the tail in one of the tick tock sets, and it looked like it might have been stick induced. Can't see how it can hold so well in everything else, and wobble in a tick tock. Maybe a little more tail expo. What are you running?

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 04-24-2013, 07:33 AM   #105
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Thanks for the tip about the plastic pin. I removed the tail gear housing and sure enough the pin has sheered. Last night, FL's didn't have them in stock, so put on back order, asked for an email when back in stock, and I got one this morning. Realised I could also do with some new velcro straps for the 600 flight pack so already got 2 things on my wish list again

I'm glad you enjoyed the vids Sutty. In all fairness it is about the 7th pack and 2nd outing at the field, just my first outing with the camera. Hence why the clip is so called. Indeed, the fact I was able to pick it up so quick is entirely due to SIM practice.

I also spent 80 on spares and the servo gears. Most expensive item being the main blades. The day after the parcel arrived I discovered an old matched set of blades, and those woodies I've not been ab;e to destroy so I could have got away without them Plus now I have 2 spare servo cases and gears. So knowing my luck, I'll probably never break one again after breaking 2 in 2 consecutive crashes, as I did with the inaugural flights on this bird

I was very happy with how chestcam worked out. Don't get as much pan and tilt as if it were head mounted, but you still get a little, almost dampened effect. To counter that, I conciously tried to fly directly infront of me, and less side to side action. When I was stood there scratching my head at a lack of suitable hat, I thought of our old friend the chicken gimbal, and how we humans are not so flexible. When our heads turn, your shoulders always follow to a small degree, and so does the rest of your torso. Figured that from skateboarding and snowboarding. When your winding up to do a spinning trick off a jump, you throw your arms and head in the direction of rotation where your want to go. Then the rest of your body follows. So I just figured the same rules will apply if I strap a camera to my chest, seems to have worked a treat and I will definetly try it again.

As for the tail, I'm running 25% expo. Would appreciate any thoughts about that. I do remember Tim @ the club once saying some guys there are running as much as 40%, so maybe I do need to tweak it some more? Oh and the piro speed a little too.

Indeed, that was very much a good day out and I can't wait till I can give the 600 a similar kind of spanking

Ding dong! The postie just arrived with my charging board and bullet connectors, so better get back to the workbench!! Just did a quick test to show the charge board works ok. Can't wait to see how it works on a proper cycle, so I must try and get that 450 out again today. Will just have to be more careful on the landings.

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Old 04-24-2013, 08:11 AM   #106
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Indeed, some very good flying there, buddy! Nice to see you knock off the rust.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:10 AM   #107
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Not saying for sure it was you Denis, but just in case, you can try some more expo. I run 40% on all my helis tails, and indeed I've heard of people running even more than that.

As for piro speed, travel adjust should do the trick. Pretty sure that is standard for many high end gyros. I like mine slower, so I have mine at 80%. Not sure how that directly translates, but I have all the same controllers, or did for a while, so all models were at 80%, and all went round at the same speed. Now that I have the VX1 on one of them I have had to adjust that to 'feel' the same as the others, but in this case you do it in the Datapod field programmer, not on your Tx, and you just set it in degrees per second, which is really easy to work with.

Cheers

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Old 04-24-2013, 12:48 PM   #108
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I know you weren't Andy. I just accept there is a high probability that it is me, and more Expo to soften centre stick is a very good answer

However, I've just been working on the 600 gyro as I did muck it up again. Was reminded from the Spartan manual about having to much mechanical gain. Might also look at moving the ball in 1 hole on the tail servo horn, then up the gyro gain a little. I thought 25% was a little low for the 450. Maybe something in that too, so will do some tests and time will tell.

Stayed up a little late last night and paying the price today. Rain also forecast now, but should dry up for tomorrow evening. So going to get an early night to catch up, maybe not go out with the 450, do some other jobs tomorrow and take both heli's out as soon as the rain stops. Hoping to get to the club for around 4pm till 7.30pm Want to be able to say I've flown the 600 and not just hover it.

Just looked outside it's still dry and the wind has dropped off totally ahead of the rain. But the clouds are starting to look very moody!! Maybe I'll nip to the park and just test the ball move/higher gain thing, and play with the Expo a bit. Nothing fancy mind, there is a high risk I could dumb thumb due to tiredness!! Wish me luck
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:00 PM   #109
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Well I just stayed in the garden and put all my effort into looking at the tail. No matter what I did, it would not stop the occasional wag.

Couldn't move the ball in. Only 2 holes, and I'm already on the inner one. Could it also be the case I don't have enough mechanical gain? Anyway, I am sceptical about this due to the rest of the testing.

I played with gain again, even as low as 20% HH mode. But seemed to have settled back at 25% as it offers about the best all round. Any more gain and the wag gets worse, any less and it will bounce after piro's, and the tail jump right a little during pitch pumps.

I played with Expo, and tried some tic-toks. Totally agree with you sutty. The tic-toks I did on vid definately had some thumb interaction going on. I think the additoinal expo helps reduce it or keep it minimal at least.

Adjusted ATV/end points for piro speed, and adjusted left rudder to match the same speed as right rudder. Still got the bloody wag though.

So I thought, the output shaft looks OK after yesterdays incident. But I still haven't changed the lower main gear. Could still be something mechanical. Checked over the pitch slider and tail blades, as I hadn't inspected them closely yet. I noticed what I would describe as some slop on the whole output shaft, and I wondered if anyone else's PRO is the same. Will take a short clip of it and post up later, Hoping Sutty or someone else with a PRO can confirm if there's is the same.

I went through all 4 packs, but came to that conclusion after 3. I just did the last pack in so I can try out all 4 packs on the new multi charge board. Just put it on, so can't wait to see how long it takes to cook all 4
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:29 PM   #110
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Don't know that gyro well enough, but with the MB if there is a lazy occasional wag, as opposed to fast wag when under or after high load situations like in pitch pumps or tight changes of direction, then it is nearly always as a result of a mechanical issue, or a vibration problem, which in itself is mechanical. Binding push rod, stiff tail grips under load, loose or wobbly grips, poorly balanced tail blades, bent tail output shaft or even mismatching tail blade tension in the grips. Sometimes it even comes down to simply changing the gyro mounting tape as different types can absorb different frequencies that affect the gyro differently. How do you have it fixed down now?

I improved the 450 tail with a direct carbon push rod, and to be fair, if it now holds solid in fast backwards, or in huge tail slides, even when I kick it out to say 30 degrees whilst doing it, then I assume it to be good enough. That way I know it isn't going to let go on me, so I don't even bother about small things like it not staying perfectly still. Good enough is good enough, and I've just gotto go fly. For me I can spend too much time perfecting and tracking down tiny issues, which invariably I end up simply throwing money at to make it perfect. In the end I've found it is much better to be out there throwing it around. Maybe you just have to live with it Denis. You were doing pretty good with it the other day, and it didn't seem to be holding you back. Maybe it is the best it can do in gusty wind, without a specialist, much better and faster, and more expensive tail servo?

I only see mine move now when it is very gusty, and I just put that down to the tail being relatively small and unable to instantly correct against the wind. Small tails are notoriously hard to get perfect, and the smaller they are then the harder it is. I only really ever cured the 250 by getting a really good servo for it, so in the end seeking perfection often just costs money, lol.

As a result of frequenting the VX1 forum I now know some good tricks for mechanical gain. Some are VX1 specific, but others are more general and I have seen a terrific graph where Angelos descibes what we are trying to achieve and it is simply this. Too far out and you have a lot of speed, and the travel is very linear, and proportional as the servo doesn't rotate very far to get there. Too far in and you have a lot of accuracy, at the expense of speed, and possibly worse, at the end of the travel, you can move outside of the linear movement range of the servo arm, as it is now moving to a serious angle to the push rod at the extremes. Now of course you probably know this, but just in case.

Thje simple way to get this right is by looking at it when it moves from extreme to extreme. First you need to be in the middle at the start, so that the lack of linearity is the same at both ends and second, when you look at the rotation of the arm it should be around 80-90 degrees for full travel on the slider. More than this, (too far in), and you start to become very non linear, and you are wasting speed as it has to rotate so far to get there. Much less than this, say only 45 degrees, (too far out) and you would be losing resolution, or accurate control, for the gyro to work at its best.

Just turning it by hand, and looking at it to see if it turns about 90 degrees, is often a good enough way to check, and means the travel is appropriate. If you don't have this, and you only have two holes in the arm to adjust it, then maybe you could try some different arms from your spares box?

As for if 25% is enough, well as Angelos said somewhere, it is enough if it is enough, meaning if it holds well then it holds. Also, 25% DX8 style is 62.5%, DX6/7 style, which I often found is where I was at, there or thereabouts, with my Quarks or MBs, and when you say it in those terms it doesn't seem quite so low? Not to me anyway.

Just some idle thoughts and rambllings. Not sure if it helps or not?

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 04-24-2013, 06:28 PM   #111
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I appreciate where your coming from Sutty, and some things I did know and need a reminder anyway, and some things I didn't know and appreciate you sharing the knowledge.

As I said earlier, I too had come back to the idea that it maybe something mechanical so I've made this clip of the potential issue to explain it clearly. The heli started off OK after the first garden tests, and was good at the field yesterday, but today in the garden, it seemed progressivly worse. Not like it was going to let go, but just very distracting all the same. The tic-toks seemed better from the increased expo as you recommended, so a step in the right direction there.



I decided after making this short clip to grab the calipers and measure the end of the output shaft to where the plastic gear is pushed onto. I have 2 new output shafts, and they both measured just over 3mm to within 0.02mm of each other. However the existing output shaft shown in the clip above was about 3.17mm to the gear. Could this be wear and tear then, or is it as a result of the hard landing yesterday I wonder?

So, decided to go looking for some shims to take out the slop, and after some digging I came up with 2x0.9mm shims that fit over the shaft perfectly. Got them installed now, packs are charged up and ready for another test tomorrow. Not ready to give up yet, feeling positive it will improve with the shims



And a final note for the day, all 4 packs charged up in an amazing time. Was looking to reduce 6hrs charging 4 individual packs by about half, to 3hrs. The result was even better I'll be smiling about this all week

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Old 04-25-2013, 05:02 AM   #112
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Still pinching myself at that charge time. 4 packs done and well balanced I have to add, in the same time it used to take me to do 1

Good news again The tail is absolutely rock solid now. Taking the slop off the output shaft by installing some shims has done the trick. If I'm hyper critical then yes there is still the tiniest bounce after a clockwise piro, but it is what I would call acceptable (about 1" bounceback CCW, and you can't even tell from a distance). All the bobbling/oscillating and big bounces are gone. Not tried a tic-tok yet, but I'm confident they will be much improved after this mornings test.

The gain has found its way back upto 30%. I may still try a click either way, as I only got to that value at the end of the pack in idel 1, when the HS would have dropped a little anyway. So with the higher HS in idel 2, I will maybe reduce it a couple of clicks, but that's all.

As you say Sutty, if I wanted it perfect then I would go back, replace the lower main gear and tail output shaft also, as I know that is where the issues lie. I'm sure if I stuck an SK720 on it, had a look at the vibes chart, then changed the parts and did another flight, the flight log would record less vibes. But the performance is good enough now, so there is no need to go that far (until I stick an MB on it perhaps ).

So I think that is it. I'm happy to conclude this thread, as the machine has been well received, proper fligtht tested, and had a few crashes and tweaks made. I'm satisfied I cannot make it any better, so for now I will draw a line under it.

I would like to say this one last time to everyone who made this possible. I absolutley love the PRO compared to my V2, so a HUGE THANK YOU once again (not forgetting the DX8) for making me a very, very happy man.





Cheers,
Denis
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #113
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Nice spot and fix with the shims Denis. Noticed mine was a bit like that whilst re-building earlier, because you had pointed it out. Might be able to improve mine a little if I shim it like that.

Cheers

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Old 04-25-2013, 05:15 PM   #114
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Well Sutty, after I watched my vid on youtube, it came up with a load of other video's with similar title's, so seems it is a known issue with the output shaft gear slop. Glad I managed to spot it and come up with a fix, and be lucky enough to have some shims. They were actually in a spares box marked servo spares, and I don't even know what they came off originally!!

Some of the other vids and links I looked at after doing a more accurate search say replacing it with a new shaft only sometime's solve's the issue. Maybe not all these gears are made precisely equal then, and some do get pushed on a bit more than others, or the pilot is lucky enough to wear it down. Having some shims to for these eventualities is the recommended fix that is already out there. Just figured it out for myself as I first did it to my belt-cp when I modded the belts tail gear box with the align bearings and the V2 belt & tail output shaft. You can just make out the shims either side. In the case of my 450 PRO, it was better to put both shims on one side to get the best gear mesh.



If you have some play in the tail like that then yes shim it up and lets see if you notice any improvement too? Mine is sooo stable now I think I might have to do a vid with some inverted hovering a bit closer to the camera, just to show it off. Will see how the weather is tomorrow.

Have managed to catch up with Gaz and emailed Tim, the club chairman. Looks like it will be Sunday when I venture back to the club with the 600. Itching to go, but going to wait till there are some more experienced people around, for the purposes of engine tuning or if I run into engine difficulties.
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DX6i, mSR (SOLD), BeltCP (SOLD), mCPx w solid boom and Rakon Heli Head

T-Rex450V2 w.PRO head, Scorp-8 & 45A V2 ESC, CSM4200/S9257, 3xHS65MG
E-Flite CX2 - All Microheli/Extreme CNC CF Upgrades
TRex600N, Kasama Head, OS50SX
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Belt CP E-Sky Belt CP

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