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Old 11-29-2012, 12:55 PM   #61
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The blade length is an interesting point. Weight alone is not the determining factor here surely? Disc loading has to be the important factor as I understand things (v happy to be told otherwise) so a L700, optimised to fly 715mm blades I believe can be a fair bit heavier than let's say a TDR optimised on 690s whilst performing similarly. Would that be a better way to look at it?
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:00 PM   #62
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Bingo night and day difference between 690s and 710s.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:40 AM   #63
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Up until the L700, Logos were very light for their disk size. This made for a great power to weight ratio and light disk loading. These two characteristics generally make for a nice flying heli. The Logo 500/600 design was way ahead of its time. It is well engineered, even if it still uses plastic in places where metal would be a better choice.

So, the L700 is a bit heavy and is 'ready for tomorrows super power systems'. I can tell the difference between 696 and 716 blades on my Synergy but it's not 'night and day' for me. I can also tell the difference when flying my 4000 mah 45c over my 4500 mah 65c bats. If longer blades is what it takes to make the L700 fly best, then maybe that's just an indicator of obesity for a 700 size ship....

Personally, I think Mikado biffed this one up a bit. They should have stayed with their original light airframe approach to RC helis. You can make a rigid and strong airframe without adding a lot of unnecessary weight. I don't care about tomorrow's power systems. It may be a long time before there are viable and reasonably affordable choices for 14s and 16s power setups.

I am still considering adding a Logo, to my fleet but as much as I like 700 size, my choice would be a 600sx...
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:57 AM   #64
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Guess till many fly and or try one there will always be much assumption and speculation on how it flies or feels. There is lots to be said of a helicopter built where you can truly charge and fly repeadiately as well with no issues.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:07 PM   #65
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Wow a lot of "weight" slamming here. My 700e and Goblin both weigh around 11.5lb AUW. The L700 is .5lb heavier and has a bigger 713mm default disk. .5lb is VERY little difference for a 700 machine. Lets not get carried away with "obesity" comments here over a mere 1/2lb.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:43 PM   #66
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Wow a lot of "weight" slamming here. My 700e and Goblin both weigh around 11.5lb AUW. The L700 is .5lb heavier and has a bigger 713mm default disk. .5lb is VERY little difference for a 700 machine. Lets not get carried away with "obesity" comments here over a mere 1/2lb.
OK, obesity was a bit harsh...should have used a smiley I suppose...

Flight characteristics of model helicopters are made up of the sum of the total of the parts. Weight to disc size (disk loading) is important, maybe more so to some than others. The mechanical CCPM setup is another important design consideration. Tail drive type and execution etc etc etc lots more stuff too. These things all add up to give each ship its own 'character' for lack of a better word. However, I can sure feel a half pound difference in battery weight when flying my 10.5 or 11 pound 700.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:01 PM   #67
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But Stevehof, you have slightly missed the point. It isnt about the L700 being 'a 700 sized ship'. Most 700s have been optimized for the 690mm blades whereas the L700 has been optimized for the 715mm blades. So it really isnt about the L700 being better just by adding blade length, it is all about flying it as it was designed- a big difference. The L700 has clearly been designed to be a bigger than average 700 and with that comes some extra weight. I think a better way to regard the L700 is as a 700+ sized ship.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:27 PM   #68
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Yes exactly. Plus I find the SE Edge blades to be a real advancement in design. They're less gung ho in terms of stability characteristics compared to the first generation of FBL blades. The end result is a very agile cyclic. Of course you can stick these on any model, and if you took lesser 713mm blades on the L700 I'm sure the feel would be completely different, as blades are a major defining factor in cyclic behavior.

Another important factor on how a model feels is weight/mass distribution around the CG. Most 700's like the 700e and Goblin use stick pack configurations. This increases the amount of mass in front of and behind the main shaft. The effect is known as the "pendulum" effect. In flight it slows down how quickly the elevator controls can accelerate and decelerate. This adds to asymmetries in how aileron and elevator feel. The L700 implements saddle packs which condenses the mass closer to the main shaft and radically reduces the pendulum effect. I'm a huge fan of this battery configuration as it makes a model feel very quick and agile on the elevator compared to one where you have battery packs extending well out the front.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:07 PM   #69
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But Stevehof, you have slightly missed the point. It isnt about the L700 being 'a 700 sized ship'. Most 700s have been optimized for the 690mm blades whereas the L700 has been optimized for the 715mm blades. So it really isnt about the L700 being better just by adding blade length, it is all about flying it as it was designed- a big difference. The L700 has clearly been designed to be a bigger than average 700 and with that comes some extra weight. I think a better way to regard the L700 is as a 700+ sized ship.
I don't see where the L700 has a monopoly on 710-715 blade size. I just put a set of 716 Rails on my ship and I can feel the difference and the larger disk suits my flying style nicely.

A little math might be useful here. Going from 690 to 715 gives you about a 3% length increase with about a 6% increase in disk area. Going from 11 to 12 pounds is a 10% increase in weight. It doesn't look to me like the bigger disk makes up for a heavier than average airframe.

I know that disk loading is not as important to some folks as it is to others. That doesn't change the facts for those who are interested in and consider the more technical side of RC helicopter aerodynamics.

We all enjoy giving our opinions on why our ship 'flies like it's on rails' or the cyclic response is so 'linear' and lots of other subjective feelings. The bottom line is that all this stuff is predicable if you understand the science behind the engineering. I certainly don't claim to understand aerodynamics but I do understand most of the practical ramifications of disc loading.

Bottom line is that some folks may prefer ships with a heavier disc loading. That may well suit their flying style just fine. That's a conversation for a whole 'nother topic....
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:45 PM   #70
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First off being "linear" is a feel thing Steve, but it is quite noticeable how well geometry is done and the overall design when you can see and feel it in flight against other models. It is not opinion at all, some helis "no matter what" do weird things, others do not, and getting that perfect comes from experience and know how of a manufacturer nothing else. Mikado has MANY years over the competition in design and truly are like no other helis, they have not ever needed to copy anyone with their released designs to date.

Well other then a few folks getting a main gear that was not to their liking, there are and have not been any other issues. The build is good, solid. NO issues in fitment, static, or weakness of metals or need for outside upgrades etc. So if the only real bitch is peoples take on the weight and if the people who own one NOW and are flying it like it then that is success on its' own really.

I always take what I see for videos, and what people claim as pure salt, I buy it, build it, fly it and then I decide for myself like I have many times. Some stayed for awhile but many have left my stable. I currently have now (2) Logo 700 xxtremes, and currently no other 700 size machines I will have one in pure stock form supplied power system, and one I will mess with 14S, different motors, blades etc, should be a ton of fun to play that way.

This heli unlike many others comes out of the box with the need for ZERO upgrades, no small weak bearings, no weak links, and best of all for Mikados first Torque Tube a silky smooth static free STRONG setup, that is one of the things that mosts impresses me is how good the tail design overall truly is in person. It also like many others has been 100% PROVEN AND TESTED thanks to the big Mikado team of testors and competition pilots so there are no real suprises for the paying customer.

Mikado now has a factory a real one, they are 100% committed to the future and changes and options that may come for us. I would expect 2013 to be a very exciting year and continued innovation, keep your eyes open alot of what has been done with the 700 and 800 was and is for very good reason!
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:46 PM   #71
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Wow a lot of "weight" slamming here. My 700e and Goblin both weigh around 11.5lb AUW. The L700 is .5lb heavier and has a bigger 713mm default disk. .5lb is VERY little difference for a 700 machine. Lets not get carried away with "obesity" comments here over a mere 1/2lb.
Could you break down the weight of your 700 as in my Logo 700 weight thread? Just curious to understand where my extra 10.5 ounces is coming from
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:50 PM   #72
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zguy, curious do you yourself have any concern as to how the heli flies or any issues thus far?
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:24 PM   #73
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Could you break down the weight of your 700 as in my Logo 700 weight thread? Just curious to understand where my extra 10.5 ounces is coming from
See post 1. Shawn measured 12lb.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:38 PM   #74
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I have not weighed on a calibrated scale as I said. Since flying I haven't cared to be honest. Many have weighed and seen from just around 12 to 12.5. I will at one point get to a long scale like Norman did where he reports his at just under 12 on a FedEx scale and see where mine is truly at.

It is heavier absolutely it also dwarfed such helis as goblin 700 I had like big time so o course it would. From what else is on market that I've seen and had only the rush 750 and whiplash were comparable, actually same size really and both those outfitted with same motor, smaller and lighter esc, same packs and blades etc were both heavier however then my logo 700.

When Logo 600 came out it was and is light and still IMO is the king electric in 600 class. I can't tell you how many people without flying it claimed it would be so fragile, wouldn't fly good and was too light, so how did that go? Now what mikado makes in many people's eyes is too large, too heavy and is not going to work? Have you flown one yourself?? Anyhow that's why there are options and other brands. Fly what you like and if you do have another heli similar size compare after 50-100 flights and see where you are at. What is important to you may differ from what's important to me and that's cool.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:34 PM   #75
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<snip>Now what mikado makes in many people's eyes is too large, too heavy and is not going to work? Have you flown one yourself?? Anyhow that's why there are options and other brands. Fly what you like and if you do have another heli similar size compare after 50-100 flights and see where you are at. What is important to you may differ from what's important to me and that's cool.
I don't think anyone here has claimed the the L700 is 'too heavy and is not going to work'. Some of us have enough experience to know that a certain airframe characteristic, like disc loading, will be very important for our particular flight style. This assumption is based on experience and we don't necessarily have to fly a ship to know if it will work well for us.

When you start a performance review like this thread was intended to be, you can't expect that everyone will follow up with nothing but positive reinforcement... The last sentence of your quote above is right on and and I couldn't agree more.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:48 PM   #76
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Positive re enforcement? Nope only the people who actually have one can do that, "if" they choose to. Reps with other companies can make comments same as I have and do but owning A and B makes a difference to especially if its honest.

I welcome opinions for sure and of course expect speculation for sure. I'm saying for those that have the machine if there are concerns definitely bring them forward. For those that do not discussion is good but speculation is just that ... Speculation. IMO to put the logo 700 in comparison to Sybergy E7 is not a comparison at all E7 would look like a 450 next to it, same as people comparing a SAB 630 to a Logo 600 the Goblin 630 is a fair bit larger in aspect.

I think maybe Ralph could have called it a 750 being it can swing 753mm mains as well it is just "That" much larger then other 700s. Currently in pyshically size only the Whiplash and Rush 750 could be accurately compared IMO.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:55 PM   #77
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See post 1. Shawn measured 12lb.
Yes, but I'm asking if you've measured yours and can separate out the battery weights?
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:08 PM   #78
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I think maybe Ralph could have called it a 750 being it can swing 753mm mains as well it is just "That" much larger then other 700s. Currently in pyshically size only the Whiplash and Rush 750 could be accurately compared IMO.
I'm confused. Was it designed to be a 12s 700 running 715 blades (Carapau post #67) or was it designed to run 750 blades on 14s? If the former, then it's fair to compare it to any other 700 since most will be flying it on 12s and 715's....
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:15 PM   #79
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zguy, curious do you yourself have any concern as to how the heli flies or any issues thus far?
Hi Shawn,
All the data and opinions I'm sharing at this point are in my 13S thread:
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=474783

I'm very satisfied with the design, quality and thus far flight characteristics of the 700.

As in the above thread, my L700 weighs 12.65 lbs w/ TP 12S 5000 65C and is not satisfying me in the power to weight category.
The 13S set up in initial testing seems notably better and only added 1.9% to my AUW totaling 12.9 lbs.

The blades I was hoping to test this weekend did not arrive, which may be moot since it's supposed to rain all weekend.

It would be fantastic if some test data could be posted along side people's opinions. This will help all understand much better! It's like one guy saying he flys for 4 min, and another for 6 min. What batteries? Flight style? Head speed? How much returned to the packs?

So...
Weigh the helis and post results.

If your running VBAR gov, simply raise the throttle curve to 100% and check max head speed on a fresh battery. (Make sure the max HS in Vbar is high enough to not limit it)

We can all be learning so much more!
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:15 PM   #80
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I'm confused. Was it designed to be a 12s 700 running 715 blades (Carapau post #67) or was it designed to run 750 blades on 14s? If the former, then it's fair to compare it to any other 700 since most will be flying it on 12s and 715's....
I'd say it was designed to be useable with 12s and 715 blades, but was designed specifically to handle much more power than your typical 700 class 12s motor, and swing bigger blades in the 720 to 750mm range.
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