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Warp 360 Compass Warp 360 Model Helicopter Discussion


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Old 12-26-2012, 10:59 AM   #41
Stevemech
 

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Hey that's great you got 130 flights without issue,wish I could say the same!
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawl View Post
Just ad a little extra loctite and let the loctite donuts job. Just logged flight 130 on mine and it's still going strong with no signs of any issues.
You should have bought a lottery ticket the day you built your kit. I don't honestly know if loctite was designed to "glue" a loose fitting joint screw that is not torqued down. On the tail pulley, I am tightening the bolt finger tight with an extremely light touch and there's a fine line between too loose and too tight. Even if loctite is the proper product for the job, I would imagine the bolt could be slightly off from perpendicular when the glue dries. This, combined with the somewhat loose fit, high speed rotation, vibration, etc., it's no surprise some guys are having issues.

I know the intention of your post was to provide a solution to get guys in the air. I am not here to beat on a new kit, but rather want to see it improved so when people purchase a kit and build it they don't have to fiddle with stuff and end up having problems and disappointment. I have never owned a Compass product before so I am neutral as far as brand loyalty is concerned, but I do think the Warp is a great design that deserves...better, for lack of a nicer way to say it.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:26 PM   #43
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+1. I hear you Scoty !!
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotY View Post
On the tail pulley, I am tightening the bolt finger tight with an extremely light touch and there's a fine line between too loose and too tight.
Yep. It can go from wobbly, to just right, to draggy/notchy just from breathing on the bolt. Any more than barely finger tight (the point where the bolt head just makes contact with the pulley) and the thing practically locks up. Going to try the loctite and see, but I really don't trust that with such a loose connection. I'm in no big rush to see this bird dive into the ground over little issues such as this. Looks like I'll just keep tinkering with it until some of these issues get solved, which I'm sure all of the issues will be resolved or have a good workaround soon. At least a lot of us are building these over the winter so not being able to get it in the air isn't really a big deal for me at the moment.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:14 PM   #45
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I would attempt to remove one flanged bearing and add a shim washer or two, then reinstall the bearing. I suspect heat will be needed. Do this at least for the side without the main belt pulley. I am 99.9% sure this will work well enough.
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:01 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotY View Post
You should have bought a lottery ticket the day you built your kit. I don't honestly know if loctite was designed to "glue" a loose fitting joint screw that is not torqued down. On the tail pulley, I am tightening the bolt finger tight with an extremely light touch and there's a fine line between too loose and too tight. Even if loctite is the proper product for the job, I would imagine the bolt could be slightly off from perpendicular when the glue dries. This, combined with the somewhat loose fit, high speed rotation, vibration, etc., it's no surprise some guys are having issues.
Exactly, and well said. I have written fairly extensively about a cheap fix for this in 3 threads here in the Warp section. The design is ok, but it needs a few mods to solidify the ability of the bolts to run true and stay in perfect alignment without leaning. To do this the only true mechanical engineering solution is to anchor the other ends of the assembly. Or for most guys who are buying and assembling this kit they are relying on pure luck to address the bolt lean and tension roller issue. Even if they get it right during setup the very violent belt movement can and will eventually force the bolts off at an angle. Just loctiting the bolts is in my book a worse case bandaid just waiting for problems. Just exactly the problems we are seeing.

So to make this happen correctly, a few things just have to happen. Let me explain.

1. Address the tension roller slop around the bolts. The slop around the threaded bolts makes it critical to "precisely" tension them as mentioned several times here or they will roll off angle and or even chatter. Belt hop!
The only way to address this is to find or use a shanked bolt that isn't threaded in the tension roller area. Period. There is no other solution for this than this. As it tightens up the mechanical slop in the bearing races that seat the rollers to an acceptable level. Either this or larger bearings with an insert that seats tightly around the threaded section and fits the bearing races perfectly. I do like this idea because it now allows us to control the larger motor belt tension roller also, but requires a redesign of the rollers to accommodate this idea. ( the motor belt roller is also just seated on a threaded area also).

2. The bolts themselves must have a plate or anchor on the free end that forces them to stay perpendicular to the actual mounting plate. This isn't a suggestion but is critical. Basic engineering stuff guys. This is not a suggestion. But a must happen. The tension roller bolts simply must be anchored on the free end to fully control not only the bolts themselves in holding them at a true 90 off the plates, but to allow total control over the tension needed on the rollers themselves. For one the aluminum plate is not thick enough to control the amount of force the belt and rollers are placing on the small threaded contact patch to hold the bolts true for an extended period. I will explain below.

3. Tighten up the machined threads in the plate itself. What I am seeing is two different versions seemingly. One where guys claim it is tight enough and the bolts seemingly stay tight and straight. And others like the rest of us who see tremendous slop and bolt lean. No loctite in the world can help here. Because the results cannot be regulated! Or performed equally from one builder to the next. Plus, this has to be said. If we rely on just the thin mounting plate's threaded support area on the threaded bolt. This will and must eventually fatigue due to its very very small contact patch compared to the length of the bolt and the force applied against it. Again, very very basic engineering. I measured the force against the bolt and the bolt mounting patch, the numbers don't add up! Even for the guys with lots of flights going on, it is not if, but when.

Lets understand also. I am not here bashing the Warp whatsoever. I have one and plan on owning this forever. My involvement is to move the project ahead and find mechanical solutions. Pretty much what I do in all my builds. And honestly, the better they are in stock form, the less I have to do on my end to raise them to a higher level.

Which is what I do.....and love doing. Pretty much at all costs if necessary.

This heli has the concept to be the ultimate 450 on the planet. Lets all work together to make this happen.
LMH
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:39 PM   #47
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I've read in other posts that Compass is aware of this issue and was looking into something like your carbon plate solution. Do we know if this issue is still present in the latest batch of kits? If the issue still exists in the latest batch does anyone have any ideas on how the fix will be implemented by Compass? I was looking into getting a second Warp from the latest batch, but now wonder if I wouldn't be better off waiting a few months. I guess the main concern is that some re-engineering on the frames and other parts may happen at Compass and parts from the earlier batches won't be interchangeable with later ones. I wouldn't think they would go that route, but can't be sure.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:03 PM   #48
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Quote:
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I've read in other posts that Compass is aware of this issue and was looking into something like your carbon plate solution. Do we know if this issue is still present in the latest batch of kits? If the issue still exists in the latest batch does anyone have any ideas on how the fix will be implemented by Compass? I was looking into getting a second Warp from the latest batch, but now wonder if I wouldn't be better off waiting a few months. I guess the main concern is that some re-engineering on the frames and other parts may happen at Compass and parts from the earlier batches won't be interchangeable with later ones. I wouldn't think they would go that route, but can't be sure.

As much as I'm sure they want to avoid the costs, grief, and confusion of changing the frame layout, in my mind, there's NO WAY to fix the issue without doing so. I mentioned in my assembly notes thread, the best idea I've come up with so far is to lower the boom a couple of mm lower in the frames. This is not really a trivial task but it would solve so many issues with the pulleys and strengthen the thin carbon areas.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:10 PM   #49
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There is something wrong with most of the threaded parts on my kit. The threads are, in general, a little on the loose side. It's hard to explain but it really seems that the threads are just a hair off 90 deg square. If you thread in a long bolt (so it's more noticable), the bolt will kind of droop down in the thread slop a little more in one direction than another. Maybe they actually are square but the tap is a touch oversized? That could possibly make it appear that it's not tapped straight because of the slop. Don't see how a tap could be oversized though. Unless they're tapping too fast and the tap is taking out just a little more material that it should be...I could see that happening.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:40 PM   #50
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The speed of the tap has little to do with its cut, unless a tap is superheated. And that is only possible when they are deep tapping or tapping hard material. Most likely the tap is just a tiny bit large, and the bolts they are using or ordering in, are slightly smaller. However I tried half a dozen different versions including Protec's and the slop was still there. The Protec's are cold rolled so the threads are dead on. I suggested maybe having a thicker plate also, but that would be quite difficult to pull off, as it would have to be twice as thick to get the thread seating needed to correctly hold the bolts. And it would still need the support end plate regardless. The absolute best method would be to cut an end plate that is also anchored with the primary plate. This would insure perfect alignment no matter what, as a floating plate on the end is still patchwork in my world.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #51
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Yeah, you're probably right...simple addition of tolerances. I have seen metric bolts that are labeled as M2.5 as well as others that are M2.6. In this case, we're talking about M3 bolts but maybe there are different sizes and they, for some reason, used an odd size tap.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:37 PM   #52
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I wasn't having the best of luck with things so I finally turned to Mike asking for help. He's a man of action that's for sure.

19:27 local time I sent an email to mike
19:57 local time I get a notification with a tracking number from his shipping agent.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:46 PM   #53
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Had a tail flange bearing problem on my warp and Mike quickly sent me a replacement.

Thanks Mike for the top notch customer service!!!


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Old 01-11-2013, 09:55 PM   #54
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You, guys, know where I can find the canopy standoffs? Everywhere I go, they are out of stock!
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:28 AM   #55
Stevemech
 

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I used the Trex 500 lynx aftermarket standoffs,$7 , I think it was one or two bucks more than the plastic stock ones.
Steve
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:32 PM   #56
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Quote:
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I used the Trex 500 lynx aftermarket standoffs,$7 , I think it was one or two bucks more than the plastic stock ones.
Steve
Thanks. I actually had to drill the broken piece and glued them back together with a cut 450 link inside the hole I drilled. Anyway, I have another question: Why does the tail shake right to left when I do pump pitch up? I am using an Ikon unit.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:52 AM   #57
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Figured this out too - just went into software and adjusted tail gain from 45% (per default) to 36%. Shakes and wags are gone. The tail is pretty solid now.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:03 AM   #58
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Quote:
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I used the Trex 500 lynx aftermarket standoffs,$7 , I think it was one or two bucks more than the plastic stock ones.
Steve
Are they the same length as stock? Need to drill out the frames to accept larger? bolt?
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:06 PM   #59
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Yesterday I had my tail bearing go out on me and I was lucky enough not to crash it. I have about 60 flights on it so far. Is this something I should upgrade to a better bearing? Can I get it replaced? Or is this considered normal wear and tear?

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Old 01-14-2013, 08:30 PM   #60
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I had the exact bearing go out on mine..after 45 flights.. went to ceramic bearings..perfect now..
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